Bunny, What exactly is the point of your previous post? Are you specifically trying to demonstrate that you have difficulty in interpreting classic Taoist texts, if so you’re not the only one. But, perhaps you should know that multi layered text such as the one you attempted to interpret, can be interpreted in more than one way. Furthermore a person interpretation of such texts, corresponds to the state of the interpreters mind, knowledge, experience, beliefs and understanding of the Tao, so its not in any way surprising that you come up with such an interpretation. By the way the Tao reflects everything within human experience, I know you’re going to come up with some witty repost like “no it doesn’t”, but that only seems like that to you because of your shallow understanding and experience of the Tao. Perhaps one day you may wish to understand such writings more deeply, and on more than one level, if that be the case, you may want to find a competent teacher in Taoist energy arts, if you work hard and persevere, I’m sure you will be able to look in to yourself and experience more than the shallow level of existence that most of the populous are so eagerly striving for. Quoting you from the thread ‘What is Chi, and how to develop it’. The above suggestion of undertaking study in Taoist energy arts will also answer these questions for you, and many more. Thanks for sacrificing some of your ego so that we can all observe the workings of the Tao, maybe on some level your being understands the principle of ‘investing in loss’, so I guess it’s a start. Thanks.
LBR... that was a great post... lmao... but I can also see where Zilla is coming from... interpretation is the thing when reading the classics isnt it... (loved yours though)... VR... once again a great post... although I would disagree with you on the point that taiji is cardio... it also carries a great deal of static strength exercise... my heart rate goes up during both taiji and weights... and I surely feel my legs and shoulders (although my shoulders are either getting stronger or I am learning to relax them better lately) once I have finished my practice... speaking of which its that time so will check in after I have finished... peace be with you brothers...
No, no, it doesn't create a sense of power, it actually makes you a more powerful person. Metabolic waste that is then got rid of don't you mean? in what way is it considered healthy to be a 40-pound line in the landscape?
Oh, if you want interpretation give me any even vaguely ambiguous text and I'll draw any conclusions you want from it. I've had great fun with the Bible, Nostradamus, and loads of other philosophical texts. You can interpret things however you want.
Tai Chi Chuan is a MARTIAL ART, I was taught by Sifu Todd Shawn Tei and Master Wen Mei Yu (World Reknown Master AND number one Tai Chi Chuan instructor in China, Kung Fu Magazine Woman of the year......) that Tai chi Chuan IS a martial art. when practised as a martial art the person gets better health benefits then by practising *Tai Chi for health* I believe Tai Chi Chuan was invented as a martial art not an aerobic exercise "for health". every movement has a martial application, I find it silly when I see people doing *flowery moves* and have no idea why they are making this movement or that. by practising Tai Chi Chuan martial art, one builds muscle, strengthens bones, and becomes relaxed. I have severe back injuries (1995 broken vertabrae, 3 protruding discs, 1 ruptured) a few years later, after practising Tai Chi the martial art, and after many x rays, the orthapaedic surgeons came to the conclusion Tai Chi Chuan healed my broken bone perfectly,(originally Dr. wanted to set it with a pin I said no) I did not practis e flowery moves with no point to them, I practised Tai Chi Chuan martial art and push hands.
I don't believe that certain excercises would hinder Tai Chi techniques or skills. Tai Chi is quite demanding in some aspects and involves some strenuous movements. In terms of strength and speed, I've been taught that it developes strength just like an other martial arts. Speedwise, if you can execute movement slowly, speed will follow. Course, this is only cause Tai chi is one of my base martial arts ^ ^ So I would naturally speak well of it.
I think she was making the brilliant point that taiji is not just about health and wavy arms but it is primarily a martial art and as such exercise will not hinder it...
My 2 Cents From a Western perspective, Tai Chi power comes from the training of the nervous system and of proper body mechanics to fluidly power movements using the bodyweight. Strength training will strengthen not only your muscular system, but your skeletal system too. Internal martial arts rely on proper bone structure and alignment for proper transference of power, so I don't see how it could be detrimental in this sense. Strength training also increases your nerve force, especially isometric exercises. Proper training of the nervous system allows your muscular system to be utilised in a speedy and co-ordinated manner. Unless you seriously overdid the strength training, again it would not be detrimental. The only way I see strength training being detrimental is excess tension in the muscles reducing flexibility and effective transference of power. Could this not be counteracted simply by regular relaxation and flexibility training, perhaps regular massages also?
Goodness, ... careful of language, there are kids around! (from the uber mod)... she was just adding a story, and the point I gathered was the same as Shadowdh.
I weight train ( free weights ) 4 days a week and run 4 ks 3 days a week. The results of this makes me fitter, stronger more supple and allows greater endurance in almost every area of my training. Any argument that weight training is detrimental to ones Taiji is in my opinion unfounded. I am as supple in the expression of my Taiji now as I ever was and I have no problem circulating Qi during form work and during standing work. People need to remember that Taiji in the old days was trained very hard by those who became the flag bearers. Allot of the methods for developing jin in those days was through alternative methods of weight training to develop the correct strength in the scapular and other regions of the body. Spear training, full weighted broad swords, long poles etc. It's well documented that Taiji students and masters would train until the sweat was pouring from them and in many cases they would leave training sessions, in some cases bloodied, and with the odd broken limb. The Chinese were not lifting free weights perse', but they were supplementing free weights for found objects in their natural invironments in order to achieve the same results. There is nothing wrong with weight training along side Taijiquan as long as it is in balance and not taken to Arnold extremes. Strong shoulders and scapular as well as a strong mid section are essential core development for any martial artist - IMA or MA. Something the Chinese knew in ancient times was that inactivity led to muscle and bone atrophy. Interesting that jumping, leaping, stretching and stressing the muscles in the body leads to the body laying down more bone in those stressed areas. It leads to the bodies connective tissues becoming stronger and all important chemicals within the body being released to maximise allover health. The Chinese did forms and routines as well as weapons training in order to achieve the same results that modern day physical health professionals and health scientists document as being beneficial. The Chinese saw the results of a certain kind of activity and knew it was good. A tight mid section that can wind itself up like a high tensile coiled spring, connected to a strong upper body, shoulders and scapular that can effortlessly redirect, neutralize or strike seems to me to be preferable in an art such as Taiji. It's a matter of common sense.
I think the problem with weight training, is that it conditions you to use external strength, possibly making it habitual, which could in turn affect your manifestation of internal strength. The two are very different, I think it is important to be able to clearly differentiate between the two, it is probably easier and more effective to concentrate on learning one thing well, than two things not so well.
Zilla... that is true but the differences endemic in the two should make it easier and not more difficult to keep them seperate and equal... just like riding a bike and driving a car... they are both vehicles with very different ways... I can do both very well...
I know what you mean, but I think the problem comes from making things habitual, which cannot be controlled, at least to my knowledge. Tai Chi works best in its martial purpose when it is subconsciously manifested, as per our discussions on freeform earlier. Thus if one trains two things that can be subconsciously ingrained, one is limiting the maximum potential for either one. I don’t think you can react subconsciously internally and externally at the same time, it has to be either one. In my mind, an example of this would be, say someone unexpectedly tries to grab your wrist, if you react spontaneously, subconsciously and internally you may follow and rollback, and while performing the 'rollback' to neutralize their force and control the opponent, you have some time to realize what is happening and you can decide what to do next. Whereas the other scenario is that due training externally you may subconsciously instead of following and doing a rollback, react in a external, tense manner, causing resistance to the opponents force, thus having no control of the opponent, nor time to decide on next move, overall making things more difficult, then maybe you can try something internal. But that first contact could be crucial. I would think that the part of your mind, threat instinctively reacts to such situation can either be fluid or solid, fluid being in line with internal principles, I don’t think you can train internally and externally, yet expect the subconscious reflex or what ever it may be to remain fluid and internal. I've been thinking about weight training, what is the purpose of it, if you do Tai Chi? I would think that the only reasons would be to have great external strength, though this is not needed if you have internal strength. Another reason could be to look good, which once again does not really have a purpose, since Tai Chi will make you look healthier internally and externally, internal health shines out from beneath and results in you having that which could be called 'presence', which is in my opinion more impressive than being built like a tank. Anyway, let me know what ya'll think.
Those are interesting points. I am confused though, since I am fairly new to the internal martial arts. What would you say is the difference between internal and external strength? And more importantly, why would a person with greater "external" strength not benefit more of his "internal" strength than a person who is weaker externally?
... Exactly. People assume that internal is the only thing going on in IMA's and thats the means by which you express power which is entirely misleading and it shows an inherent misunderstanding of the concept of Internal. It has always been stated that internal is expressed *in* to *out* and external arts are *out* to *in*. You are still using the external in IMA and the balance of external is still there and vitally important. If you had no external power or physical conditioning you'd simply collapse in a heap. A person with great external strength who also uses the internal will always have the advantage over those who are lacking the balance and only have the internal. So much of the expression and generation of the internal relies on the conditioning of the external. Ignoring one, is like ignoring the Yin or the Yang that the Taiji represents in it's wholeness. You can't just be Yin.
Syd you got it in one... Zilla... the thing with weight training vs taiji is a non starter... they complement each other and do not contradict, especially in terms of defense... taiji even helps my weight training as I can use the internal power to aid some of my lifts... also the use of body mechanics I have discovered through taiji plays a part in the gym... these are not similar issues which might be confused but seperate and complementary practices that can help each other... One very common misconception among those who do not lift weights to a high degree is that you lose felxibility when you gain muscle... this is patently not true... its due in the main part to lazy people not wanting to do stretching/limbering exercises to complement the weight training... I know several bodybuilders who can do the splits and have incredible flexibility...
Yes, very true, Internal implies using the intent to lead the Qi, which leads the blood, and the power follows. It does not mean that the power is generated from nowhere, obviously you still need strong muscles, particularly in your legs, as I am sure you know from doing anything in Tai Chi. But more importantly your tendons and ligaments have to be conditioned so they can move with speed and full mobility without tearing. I’ve mentioned previously something called ‘Qi Dispersion’, no one has said anything to me about it, so I figure no one knows what this is. Basically when one builds muscles, and when they reach past a certain point size wise you get ‘Qi Dispersion’. What happens is because of the shape of muscles Energy/Qi/Force does not have a straight path of travel in your body resulting in it being dissipated from the rounded peaks of your muscles, in turn resulting in less sensitivity and control. Also as mentioned in my previous post, Tai Chi relies on conditioning your mind to react in a specific way, by moving using internal principles, not external. If you keep reinforcing external principles, you cannot expect a fully internal response. I think this is a matter of opinion, and in my opinion is nor correct. I think that if one knows how to use strength internally, one does not have the need to use strength externally. Have a read of these articles, it may be considered a good example: http://www.energyarts.com/hires/library/masters/ueshiba.html http://www.energyarts.com/hires/library/masters/liuhung.html I think some people believe that if you don’t train with weights, your muscles will turn to mush and you’ll be externally weak. That is far from true, since I have stopped weight training and concentrated fully on Tai Chi, I have noticed virtually no loss of external strength, though a drop of 11 kg of muscles. Showing me that these larger muscles were unnecessary and ineffective at generating power. Tai Chi done correctly conditions your entire body, internally(organs, bones, tendons, etc) and externally (muscles). Personally, which means my opinion, I see no point in training with weights, and risking degrading your potential skill, you feel free to do what you wish, that’s your business. I would also like to mention that if you ask most high level practitioners, and I am not talking about teachers who can talk the talk, but not walk the walk, in other words ones that can teach you a form but cannot express internal force.. They will say, as in my experience, that ‘weight lifting’ is detrimental to your practice, this has been told to me by several people who have no externally impressive physique, yet can crack your head open like an egg, and throw you around like a rag doll, in other words people with real internal power. Now I would think that these people know exponentially more about the art than what I do, thus I accept their view as being greater than mine, and look for reason why they say what they say.
