In continuation of my previous response to your post, the following excerpt from that site relating to the GM history shown at the following link http://www.hapkidowon.com/css/president/body_gm_story6.php has the following paragraph at the end of that page: "The emersion in the Art, the meditations, and the solitaire in the mountain provided me the awakening that the universe and my self is one; the Ki of universe (heaven and earth) is my Ki, and my Ki is the Ki of the universe; this was the philosophy of the Hapkido, and it became the base for the Hapkidowon symbol." This further confirms my previous assertion of the "Heaven, Earth, and Man" trinity being a chosen philosophy imposed upon the logo.
-- As an aikidoka I used to take into significance the circle square triangle (which is actually described as circle triangle square in the realm of aikido), however... ... now I see things more linearly...sort of: --/\--\/--/\--\/-- and so on...the \/ 's and /\'s represent curved lines, as I could not get my .bmp images to post to the thread.
Also, in aikido, the square has been utilized to represent a solid pinning application, which I am not sure of the context since some aikido application end in throws without a pin?
I beg to differ... Actually, according to Buddhist architecture, these three geometric shapes form the bottom (and spire) of what is commonly referred to as a "stupa" and I was led to believe that the resulting architectural shape of a stupa is what gave rise to how most *stacked* pagodas are constructed. FWIW, five phase theory is mixed into this aspect, with each shape corresponding to one of the elements/phases. The missing 2 shapes from the 3 already mentioned (which form the *crown* atop the spire), are the crescent (or half-circle) and the oval/disc (often depicted as either a water droplet or a flame, since it represents "ether" if using western philosophy for the other 4 elements, i.e. fire, earth, air, water). A quick google/goggle turned up this informative image: A straight comparison of the colors shown in the image above with the colors in the image below MIGHT explain the correlation to the 5 elements more commonly seen in asian philosophies: ---------------------------------------------------------- And to izumizu: Allow me to interject that what you described in post #22, is called a SINE wave, and Wicked Pædia has plenty of images under that listing (just click here). Furthermore, your broken code in that same post can be rectified if using the edit function and inserting "[" (i.e. a right-facing square bracket) at the very start, in front of everything else (be sure not to allow a space between the inserted bracket and the "Q" in "QUOTE").
There, perhaps that is a better description of the diagram I was trying to insert. The straight lines are yang, curved lines yin.
While some may superimpose "circle, square, triangle" symbolism onto a philosophy, "circle, square, triangle" means nothing in terms of chinese historical philosophy. By this I mean, there is no major or minor documented philosophy of china prior to the modern era in which the given philosophy is based on interpretation of or representation by "circle, square, triangle" symbolism. In contrast, The Yin Yang School philosophy is the first philosophy to teach as doctrine the two concepts of the Yin Yang and the Five Aspects/Phases/Elements wherein Five Aspects/Phases/Elements succeed one another as each aspect/phase/element takes it turn and in which the philosophy dictated the symbolism. That is to say, the "Five Aspects/Phases/Elements" diagram is directly related to interpretation of and representation by said diagram. As to the "circle, square, triangle" symbolism being superimposed, there are many. But, primarily within the scope of martial art, of Japanese Zen background: one source: It is mainly the floor plan of the residence of tantric deities, Buddhas, and their retinues. It is an assemblage because it is a place where the deity and his retinue are in assembly. Each deity has a different form of mandala, in which the architectural details and colors symbolize different esoteric wisdoms. Mandalas are a variety of shapes: circle, square, triangle, and semicircle. another source: "The circle-triangle-square is Sengai's picture of the universe. The circle represents the infinite, and the infinite is at the basis of all beings. But the infinite in itself is formless. We humans endowed with senses and intellect demand tangible forms. Hence a triangle. The triangle is the beginning of all forms. Out of it first comes the square. A square is the triangle doubled. This doubling process goes on infinitely and we have the multitudinosity of things, which the Chinese philosopher calls 'the ten thousand things', that is, the universe. Sengai Gibon (仙厓 義梵?, 1750 - 1837) was a Japanese monk of the Rinzai (臨在宗) school (one of three main schools of Zen Buddhism in Japan, the others being the Soto school and the much smaller Obaku school.). He was known for his controversial teachings and writings, as well as for his lighthearted sumi-e paintings. After spending half of his life in Nagata near Yokohama, he secluded himself in Shōfukuji (located in Fukuoka), the first Zen Temple in Japan, where he spent the rest of his life. Though the Rinzai sect is particularly known for its hard-to-understand teachings, Sengai tried to make them accessible to the public. One of his famous paintings shows a circle, a square and a triangle. Sengai left the painting without a title or inscription (save for his signature), however the painting is often called "The Universe" when referred to in English. another source: The majority of aikido techniques, Seagal says, are based either on a square, triangle or circle. When a person first starts practicing, he will execute techniques formed on a square. After six months or a year of diligent practice, he will graduate to the triangle. Eventually, between one and two years of training, he will be introduced to the circle. At this level, all techniques are taught efficiently and economically with the least amount of power. The circle evolves to a flowing, continuous spiral. another source: 1. Iku-musubi: harmonization,vapor,fluidity: represented by a triangle. 2. Taru-musubi: inhalation,liquid,unification: represented by a circle. 3. Tamatsume-musubi: exhalation,solid,solidity: represented by a spuare. another source: square -- balance Trangle -- focus Circle -- harmony another source: Triangle -- irimi Circle -- awase, tenkan, kaiten Square -- osae, pinning
I agree that the 3 items BY THEMSELVES are not part any chinese philosophy (at least none that I'm aware of). But one cannot ignore the fact that stupas follow a simple design of SQUARE for the base, then a CIRCLE on top of that, followed by a TRIANGLE, and then crowned with an up-turned CRESCENT which holds a vertically oriented OVAL in what becomes a bowl when rendered into 3-D (three-dimensionality transforms the square into a cube, the circle into a sphere, the triangle into a cone, the crescent into a bowl and the oval into a droplet). The fact that there are FIVE objects which comprise the stupa, is not really a connection to the five-phase theory in china, even though I hinted at such. Instead, it relies on the four basic elements of western alchemy, plus a fifth element (unseen by humankind) which was said to exist and supposedly permeated everything, allowing the other four elements to intermingle and form the cosmos. This "ethereal" substance was sometimes referred to as "the elixir of life" and confused with the same stuff which could "change base metals into gold" (due to misinterpretations regarding allegorical passages concerning the elements and how they tie into biology). Stupas are very old and connected to buddhism prior to its import into china, so the inclusion of building such a shrine is not necessarily a "chinese" philosophical aspect. And buddhism had morphed tremendously by the time it had been imported to japan, so I wouldn't dream of using any examples of japanese-flavored buddhism in relation to buddhism in china. I realize that I mentioned *stacked* pagodas and that such structures are more prevalent in japan than china, but I seem to remember reading something regarding the architectural aspect of the different levels being based off the concept of the stupa (I didn't look up any verification regarding this, unfortunately). I didn't mean to insinuate anything by this, which would require further inspection of japanese-style buddhism (which I feel has no direct influence on how buddhism is perceived in china). All I really meant to do was show that the 3 symbols mentioned (along with the other 2 symbols) did appear in one of the older philosophical/religious vehicles found in china. Again, without going to the trouble of looking for a source to back up the claim, I seem to recall something about geometrical shapes being correlated to the 8 trigrams. Whether or not the 3 items mentioned were included in such geometrical shapes, I couldn't say. :dunno:
I apologize in advance if my comment offends. What I want to say is that much of this tends to fall into the category of "how many angels can sit on the head of a pin? For millenia Human Beings have sought to understand why stuff works the way that it does, and the theories and philosophies shift and warp with whatever belief system is supreme at a given moment. Personally, I don't find that dichotomous thinking does much to help me either in my MA practice or in my personal life. Further I can attest that there is no belief system which cannot be turned for the production of a toxic outcome. While the great nations of the Pacific Rim have filched bits from each other over many generations, one will be hard-pressed to get them to admit to that. As a result one can spend an entire life-time chasing after the origin of a given thought or belief system with little or no practical result. IMHO the thread on Acupressure and Acupuncture points is far more productive. FWIW. Best Wishes, Bruce
Aw c'mon, Bruce, while the differentiation of hard/soft in MA actually meaning unyielding/yielding may not be important to someone like you or me (who've been around MA long enough to intuitively realize it if not ACTUALLY being aware of it), such a realization was probably informative for lots of MAists reading this thread, even those who've been involved with MA for many years (just not decades). But thanks for the plug on the acupuncture thread I started (BTW, I'll be posting the last page of points there soon, thus completing the work).
Oh... Okay. BTW: I was thinking of using some of your "corrections" on my website to lend a bit more clarity. You OK with that? Best Wishes, Bruce
Regarding #30 Eum-Yang is not just dichotomy; although most people are aware of only this aspect. A proper understanding of Eum-Yang together with correct teaching structure is necessary to apply it fully. Proper teaching is Theory to Principle to Method to Technique. This is the natural order and the objective. It is the key to a fundamental understanding of martial art. 음양 EumYang 陰陽 (YinYang) theory has permeated Asian thought since at least the 4th century B.C. as evidenced by the idea of 음 Eum 陰 (Yin) and 양 Yang 陽 (Yang) included in 좌전 춘추시대 JwaJeon ChunChuSiDae 左傳 春秋時代 Zuo's Commentary on the Spring and Autumn Annals (ZuoZhuan ChunQiuShiDai). However, the actual period in which it was first conceived is lost in antiquity. It did not evolve from 도 Do 道 Way (Dao) described in 노 자 도덕경 No Ja DoDeokKyeong 老 子 道德經 Lao Zi's Way of Virtue Classic (Lao Zi DaoDeJing). Nor did it evolve from 태극 TaeKeuk 太極 Great Extreme (TaiJi) described in 역경 YeokKyeong 易經 Change Classic (YiJing). It is not 도 Do 道 Way (Dao) nor is it 태극 TaeKeuk 太極 Great Extreme (TaiJi), rather, they incorporate 음양 EumYang 陰陽 (YinYang) in their doctrines. Essentially, 음양 EumYang 陰陽 (YinYang) is a ‘Monistic Dichotomy’ or metaphysics for the systematic investigation of the nature of first principles and problems of ultimate reality to include the study of being and structure of the universe. All things correspond to and consist of 음 Eum 陰 (Yin) and 양 Yang 陽 (Yang). The negative, passive, weak, destructive principle is 음 Eum 陰 (Yin) while the positive, active, strong, constructive principle is 양 Yang 陽 (Yang). As distinct principles, 음 Eum 陰 (Yin) and 양 Yang 陽 (Yang) interact and counteract each other while 음 Eum 陰 (Yin) and 음 Eum 陰 (Yin) or 양 Yang 陽 (Yang) and 양 Yang 陽 (Yang) activate each other. Although simply stated, its influence has been extensive and its application exhaustive.
Gee, seeing as how I neglected to make the quoted snippet in my post (#31) properly reflect the author (which I have since corrected), and since I clipped "Personally, " off the front of the sentence as did you, SeongIn, I'm uncertain if you were referencing me or Bruce when making your post #33. No matter, as I'm not in disagreement with anything in your post and in fact, I merely wanted to add to it. The judeo-christian creation myth states something like, "God created light and it pierced the darkness." Note that the darkness wasn't eliminated by the light and therefore both coexist together (an obvious yin/eum & yang analogy). [warning: don't chap my hide over nuances - I know I paraphrased the actual biblical verse] If looking to the ancient greeks, who (sorta/kinda) viewed the cosmos as being a battle between order and chaos, then finding yin/eum & yang in such philosophy is also not much of a stretch. Whether or not the classical ideology of what later became referred to as yin & yang was well established prior to the formation of taoism, Lao-tze, the I-Ching OR whether the concept of complementary polar opposites was more amorphous, is not all that clear. But I do agree that there must've been a consensus which they all drew upon when forming their cosmological views.
The problem with isolating quotes, paraphrasing, etc. is that it doesn't show the whole picture. What differs between philosophies is often the premises. For example, the confucian notion that all human beings are inately good vs. the birth in sin of those that believe in the god of Abraham may add a different hue to the color of the philosophies. Thoughts?
For myself, I have found that dividing Life into "good" and "bad" or "right" and "wrong", while convenient, does not actually tell us very much about what we are dealing with. It seems far too easy to apply one or the other label and feel as though we have really said something. As a result we can tied into knots trying to imagine, say, the nature of a god or spirit which is generally considered benevolent, allowing the existence of evil, yes? (I think you can drop that arguement right along side of the one about whether a god or spirit is all-powerful enough to create a situation in which that entity has no power! Sheesh!) I wonder if it is enough to reflect on circumstances so as to determine if one is allowed to be the best possible individual that one can be, or, as the I-CHING invokes "to bring circumstances to a good end". Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
I made a post in the "Analects of Confucius" thread and SeongIn informed me he thought it fit in this thread better. So-o-o, since I still have edit privileges I'm gonna delete it and re-post it here (that ought to make everyone happy!). I did realize it was a bit off-topic, so I won't be using that icon as a header to the post when transcribing it over. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for those links, SsangKall. [BTW, SsangKall's post with the links can be found here] But now I'd like to mention some stuff which has nothing to do with confucius, although it does tie into the I-Ching. Despite much elaboration on the 8 trigrams (i.e. bagua) being done by king Wen, the actual discovery of them is attributed to the mythical FuXi. Following the link provided by SsangKall, you can find the image below if browsing a bit further: Both of these patterns are accounted for in the wiki-page on bagua that I've linked above, but here they are as well (placing them in the same orientation as the image above - king Wen version on the left and FuXi version on the right). Despite the yin/yang symbol in the center being of the up/down variety of sine wave separation (i.e. when orienting the two halves so that they are one above the other instead of side-by-side, the curved line separating them is more identifiable as a sine wave, which depending on the phase of the curve can either be displayed as up then down or as down then up), which is opposite of the one found in the south korean flag, I did run across this image which uses a down/up yin/yang along with king Wen's compass layout of the trigrams. And here's a few more pertinent images: Note that if you take the FuXi layout of the trigrams and tilt it left (i.e rotate 45° CCW) and only concentrate on the cardinal compass points (ignoring the ordinal), then you have the exact placement of the trigrams as they appear on the ROK flag. Of course, this doesn't explain the layout that was supposedly used for early renditions of the flag, which used a mirror image of the current orientation, but there's no telling if the chronicler may simply have viewed the backside of the flag, since the component images are flippable without being altered and providing that the flag example had the components inked onto a "plain white sheet" thus making it appear reversed (I realize the yin/yang would be flipped and thus different from the current rendering, but I already pointed out that both versions of the taegeuk are known - not unlike the CW & CCW swastikas used in buddhism and hinduism [卐,卍]). Since this is a MA-based bulletin board, I do have a point I'm getting to, albeit in a round-about fashion. You see, I had some limited interaction with tai-chi chuan practitioners before abandoning all else for kuk-sool, and I also know that a formidable kuk-sool master had a bit of familiarity with hsing-i chuan prior to pursuing kuk-sool. But it's the third 'internal' kung-fu system which seems to hold the MOST similarity to the practices and philosophy espoused in kuk-sool: namely, ba-gua zhang. And although I've included quite a few links in this post, I urge people to at least take a glance at this last link, as the linked page isn't all that long and the photos there show a striking similarity to stances used in kuk-sool forms, as well as the objectives outlined in the section titled, COMMON ASPECTS. EDIT: I forgot to mention that FuXi recognized the importance of the trigrams after seeing them embodied on the carapace of a mystical tortoise. A hindu artist's rendition shows the trigrams and among other things, the 12 chinese zodiac animal totems, swastikas, eternity knots, the spot configuration used on playing cards for the number 5, as well as CIRCLES, TRIANGLES, and SQUARES. :evil:
This flag which you provided below is the oldest known TaeKukKi, the national flag of Korea, and was found in the "Flags of Maritime Nations" published by the Bureau of Navigation at the U.S. Navy Department in July 1882. This version uses the four trigrams from the Book of Changes. Until now, Park Yeong-hyo was known as the first person to use four trigrams from the Book of Changes. The flag was published two or three months before Park moved to Japan.
Actually, I suspect the image I included is a "cleaned up" version of the plate found in that publication. Just for fun and for the sake of comparison, here's the flag of the Republic of Korea (1948 to present), followed by the flag of the Korean Empire, then the plate from the 1882 US Navy book, Flags of Maritime Nations, and finally an image from a 5¢ U.S. postage stamp series (1943-44) commemorating 13 nations overrun and occupied by the Axis Powers during or shortly before World War II: Also from wikipedia:
there are some interesting variations - including possibly the earliest representations - here http://flagspot.net/flags/kr_hist.html Several of them with eight kwae
