All of that is correct, but I do find it a little depressing that the short-term economic argument would be the only argument that you consider valid. It reminds me of Question Time the other week, when the panel was asked about the ethical arguments for remaining or leaving, and all of them, with the notable exception of Benjamin Zephaniah, proceeded to spout economic reasons.
Our government is very enthusiastic to sign up to TTIP. It's not them protecting us from Europe and TTIP; it's Europe that's protecting us from them and TTIP. If we left the EU, the Conservatives would be able to sign undemocratic and damaging trade deals with US completely unchecked.
I think your earlier summary was fairly sound. But I'm not truly convinced though by the argument "We need the EU to have social fairness and justice in the UK". It may have highlighted some deficiencies in our governance thus far both from the left and right wing of our politics. Maybe we can learn from all this, and do better in future. Am I dreaming ? I'm leaning towards out, but that's despite the short term economic argument. Whether I actually vote "out" though is yet to materialize, but I think I would rather abstain than vote in, as it goes against my gut feeling. I was curious about the polls, and I'm slightly surprised by the strength of the Out vote. Now that it's realistic we might leave, I'm thinking maybe this is a chance we shouldn't miss. The economic and trade stuff is a red herring I think in all this. It'll just mean change, hard work and there will be casualties, but also pay offs down the line. No one likes that uncertainty and in some cases suffering.. but sometimes you choose principle over practicalities. Fear, in my opinion is a poor grounds to make decisions.. particularly ones you really need to take into account the longer term. As before I'm out on principle and that hasn't really changed, it was practicalities and the fear argument that was really holding me on the fence or towards the status quo. I feel a bit braver now, and short termism be damned, let's do this on principle and be free of ever closer European Union once and for all. Their intentions are clear and I honestly don't believe the majority of British people share the European vision.. Most can accept the status quo we are in and would put up with it. But I feel certain an In vote now, will only accelarate the agenda of ever closer political and monetary union. However, I would hope our politicians and the EU politicians can sustain some strong economic (trade) partnership if we do vote to leave. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUal6LN-ueo"]Why You Should Vote To Leave The EU - YouTube[/ame]
Yes they are the devils children them there conservatives.. But yea, that's pretty much like every democracy works. Every law passed by those voted in and every deal signed must therefore be "undemocratic" by definition.
The point with TTIP is that we would sign over sovereignty to far more insidious and threatening institutions than the EU.
Your senior civil servants and heads of influential Quangos aren't, neither are the members of the House of Lords who lead parliamentary steering groups, neither are the ambassadors and delegates who do the negotiations and formulate treaties with nations outside the EU. The fact that the EU commissioners are unelected is something of a red herring, and at least the papers they produce are then voted on and modified by elected officials. If we leave the EU then many of those issues will still be formulated by unelected officials, and a lot of them won't be voted on at all, they'll just be implemented.
I would love to see where that "UK trade legislation is 6000% more profitable than EU equivalents" figure came from. It would be nice if the EU was more democratic, but I don't have a patriotic bone in my body (at least, not toward the traditional power structures and institutions of the UK), so that side of the debate means nothing to me. Hey, if Trump tanks the dollar then it could be a good time to get on board with the Euro!
I'm not a multi-millionaire, the short term economic argument is the only one that is going to impact my life in a material way.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX_zIInIZQU"]But you, like an idiot, wanted to take over the world. - YouTube[/ame]
If I had a penny to my name, I'd bet that you are considerably better off than me! I guess my socialism is showing. I find it hard to side with those kind of "small c" conservative arguments.
Worrying about how my sister is going to feed her kids is small c conservative now? Because for my family, those are the stakes.
That wasn't how you originally framed it. You were saying that everybody should vote for whichever outcome they believe would most benefit them, purely financially, in the short term. You also said you view the livelihood of people you don't know as irrelevant. As irrelevant to you as the straightness of bananas. That smacks of "I'm alright jack" thinking to me, which is classic small "c" conservatism. I'm not passing judgement on you feeling that way, and if it will affect members of your family then I can understand it, but that is exactly how small "c" conservatism works.
Longer term risk : reward could still impact your life positively. But yes, it's a choice and risk is not for everyone.
I'm quite worried about this. No idea what could happen to ex-pats in the EU. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...hat-would-leaving-the-EU-mean-for-expats.html Could Brexit see expats deported by EU members? Almost certainly not. First, there are numerous political reasons for EU states not to do such a thing, including the treatment of their own, numerous, nationals living in the UK. Mass expulsions of citizens from another developed economy would also startle foreign investors and potentially cause economic turmoil in the expelling country. Deported? I very much doubt it. But there's a big difference between being deported and pushed out of a country once you find out it is now damn near impossible to live there. As I am not working at the moment things could get difficult if new laws about residency are brought in. And if I have to return to the UK, I'll be pretty bloody screwed (well, more screwed than I am at the moment). I doubt I could get a job there due to qualifications, experience and age... So if you vote "leave", there is a chance that me and thousands of others will be joining your dole queue very soon...good luck with that.
For who? Different for different people, different areas and different states. I'm in Finland, it was called "the poster boy for the EU" a couple of years back on the BBC, you can see a huge difference in the country's economy and standard of living etc since joining the EU (the locals wouldn't admit that - they'd like to think it's all down to them). It's not that simple. You have to look at things a little less generally.
