EU referendum

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by cloudz, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    You know that it's true the Irish might not want to let you in. ;' )

    Serious most countries allow you to move across neighbouring borders without much difficulty unless you have a criminal record or are suspected of being a troublemaker. You don't need the EU for this really.

    Just saying...

  2. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I can't argue with the benefit of being able to work in a foreign country but I don't believe that if you are skilled and wanted that you would not be allowed to work over there anyway. Half of the people coming to the UK (eg myself) come in without anything to do with the EU. I doubt that the French and German governments are much different. Easier maybe, undoable nope.

    Without the eastern europeans the UK used Jamaicans, Philipinos or whomever else would come and work cheaply. That won't change if we left the EU. Heck the teachers here are from Canada and a number of other Commonwealth countries... Europe doesn't help in all arenas.

    I never understood the EU directive since people are often asked to work more than reasonable hours or not to take the job. You said it yourself , if you disagreed they said you should leave. Funny thing, as an employer I have always never had any of the benefits extended to employees through the EU. I work the hours I work because a) my patients come first and b)no one else will do the work if I don't. I bet that there are lots of people who think that the EU hours thing is a joke since they know that there is no protection if they want to work for someone who wants more hours out of them. What good is the protection if there is a way to circumvent it built in ( you sign to work excessive hours).

    Workers rights, disability rights, the courts.. all have potential benefits but no less an authority than Jeremy Corbyn campaigned for years to get us out of the EU since he thought that workers would be better without it. I know that the guys who come to my office say it's odd.. they get asked to teach a foreigner their work and a week or two later they are not wanted since the other guys will do it cheaper. Yes there must be some things where the courts protect us but this is also the group that makes us keep people we would rather deport (for one reason or another). I hope that the protection for the disabled is preserved no matter what happens but I suspect that the UK has a history of taking care of those in difficulty more than some of our European neighbours irrespective of who is politically in control.

    Now no one can classify me as zenophobic since I am a foreign , just pointing out what I see around me. ;' D

  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award


    As a general help to the conversation
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Ill get back to you on all your points, (just off out) but just quickly,

    The UK is not at all friendly to the disabled, (that includes ex army) and it has got a lot worse under the current government.
  5. Pointy

    Pointy Valued Member

    The Republic of Ireland and the UK are not part of the Schengen Agreement/Area, as the two countries have a freedom of movement agreement (Common Travel Area) that predates Schengen. This agreement, not Schengen, allows you to drive across the border or for those in the Republic get on a boat or plane and go to the UK.

    The UK and RoI are only partners to the Schengen Area, and its this partnership which allows citizens of these countries to move about Europe freely.

    I really doubt that the govertments of the RoI or UK would do anything to upset the freedom of movement across the two countries. Its not in anyone's best interests. So a UK exit shouldn't affect your cross-border travels!

    The wikipedia article on the Schengen Agreement is not that good, but it should give you a very rough idea of the Agreement itself.

    The article on the Schengen Area is better:

    The wiki article and the Irish government's information on the Common Travel Area:

    Hang on, if you're living in Belfast and will be voting on a 'British Exit'.... does that make you British? :p
  6. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You can't make that assertion, because we simply don't know what will happen in the event of the UK leaving the EU.

    I do not see how an Independent UK can leave a land border with an EU nation unsecured, particularly since it is an objection to freedom of movement that largely precipitated the independence movement.

    Similarly with Scotland, if we leave and they break off from the union and rejoin the EU, Hadrian's wall might be called back into action.
  7. Pointy

    Pointy Valued Member

    I am basing my opinion on the actions of both governments regarding the signing of Schengen treaty and their attitudes towards movement of people across the two islands since the 1920s. Both countries' governments see movement between the islands and the rest of the EU as two different things.This in a sense, has been recognised by other EU countries within the Schengen Area Agreement.

    Granted, a country leaving the EU is unknown territory and as you say, we simply don't know (everything) that may happen. However I find it unlikely that the RoI or UK would make moves to shut down the Common Travel Area unilaterlly, which was my point in the previous post.

    Not to say that there would be no pressure from Brussels on Dublin to do so. Considering the opt-out status of both countries in Schengen, perhaps the pressure could be derailed by diplomatic fuddling, but this is pure speculation.

    Also one has to consider the impact of a return to a secured border would have on the current NI, something that both governments have an investment in.

    The impression I had that the immigration issue for the UK was more towards the eastern EU and non-EU countries. Are there similar calls at the moment for the UK(NI)/RoI border to be policed/controlled in the public discourse or in the debates of parliment?

    I am not closely following the debate in the UK media so if I am off the mark on anything, do correct me.

    (Needless to say, there would be a tariff wall of some sort economically between both countries, to the disadvantage of both.)
  8. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Witnessing the effective measures carried out by Home Office to control non-EU immigrants, I think Brexit is the only solution for UK to resolve the refugee and EU migration and non-domiciled tax status problems effectively.
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member


    1) What "effective Measures carried out by the Home Office to control non-EU immigrants" do you refer to?
    2) Why do you interpret these measures to be effective?
    3) Why do these measures that you so learnedly speak of provide resolution to the refugee and EU migration and non-domiciled tax status problems?
    4) What has Brexit got to do with nondomiciled tax status individuals?
    5) Are you a Bot trawling Troll?
  10. runcai

    runcai Valued Member

    Thanks for your questions, the government has cut 1/3 of the non-EU migrants very quickly but administrative measure as well as new policy.

    The way I see the problem is that refugees move into Europe and the Europeans move into UK getting UK benefits and repatriate their UK income with non-domiciled tax status.

    I can not see how the UK government to get a fair deal with the EU but Brexit.
  11. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Is English your 2nd or 3rd language?
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Eastern Europeans fly to Ireland, or to an Independent Scotland using their right to freedom of movement, then they could just drive into rUK without ever being challenged. I don't see how that is a viable option for an rUK government. You need to have secure borders.
  13. Pointy

    Pointy Valued Member

    You are quite right. I forgot about all of that.

    Thanks for pointing out the obvious! :D
  14. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    So, a thought I've been having recently, what happens to UKIP if we do exit? Most of their voters don't actually believe in any of their other policies (indeed with the big swings we've seen from UKIP to Labour in council elections it's questionable if most of them believed in any of it) so if we leave the EU will they just collapse?
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Then they'll campaign for England to leave the UK, then London to leave England, then UKIP will splinter as each member campaigns for their individual houses to leave the streets they're on.
  16. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    A lot gf EU money goes into urban regeneration projects in the UK. Cornwall, for example, is a very poor area of the country that gets infrastructure money from EU funds. You could say that if we left the EU, we'd have more money in the country's finances to pay for that stuff ourselves, but is that what the Tories would do with that money? Would you trust our government to ring-fence tax money to use in helping poor areas? How's their record in that?

    There's also the fact that the Conservatives opposed the directive that limited the number of hours that your employer can make you work, make them give you holidays etc. It was an EU directive that forces employers to give you breaks in your work day and if it had been due to the government of the day, they wouldn't have implemented it.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Also say goodbye to the European Convention on Human Rights, and the ability to appeal legal decisions in European courts.
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    ECHR and the European Court of Human Rights are not EU bodies (they're older). If we did leave the EU it would be virtually impossible to get a decent trade deal with the EU if we leave the Council of Europe (which literally only Belarus and Kazakhstan aren't in) as well.
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, but for the Tories to scrap human rights legislation, we would have to leave the EU so that we are no longer party to the Charter of Fundamental Rights we signed up to in the Lisbon Treaty.
  20. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    it is my understanding that the Eropean courts may only deal with cases where there is a Europe wide agreement that but a country has not passed its own legislation to put the law on its own statute books. In effect the job of the European appeals court is to cover the gap between agreement and statuary implementation. once the law is in place on a countries statues any appeal is dealt with within that country by its own appeal courts not the Eu court.

    So for example when the convention on human rights is added to uk law appeals will be delt with in the Uk though the Uk justice system. The European court will have no involvement and there will be no right of appeal to the European court.

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