EU referendum

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by cloudz, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    If your born here, your not a immigrant, as you have not immigrated here, you were born here.

    This is one of the problems with the entire debate, a lot of misinformed people, having their prejudices manipulated for others gain.

    (see Boris Johnson - born in new york - supporting the out campaign as it will help him become leader of the tories)
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Umm, I am aware of that which is why I said second generation. But to other people who don't know that, might just confuse me with an immigrant. How are they supposed to know? Sorry if the wording was confusing. But could you try to look past little errors like that - of course technically you are correct. But look at what I am asking, rather than nit-pick terminology - but yes, point taken on that. technically you are correct - but to my mind I am still from an "immigrant family". I am not English but I was born in England to be more specific.

    Whilst I was born here and I am a British Citizen, I still look foreign. In that survey how are people to tell the difference?

    Also where you live will skew your answer big time. If I was put on the spot, living in London; I have not idea what I would say. So we are talking just newcomers - ok, so how do people know that or not if there are many second and third generation people from immigrant/ foreign families?

    So my questions still stand if you want to investigate the numbers with a bit more scrutiny. I only say this because statistics can be misleading. I don't know if these are, which is why I am merely asking some questions.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I dont think you can judge people to be foreign just on their looks, I know plenty of english people who arnt white skinned, and plenty of eastern europeans who are.

    If I may ask, why dont you feel British / English? what country do you most identify with? and do you feel other people dont think you are British / English too?

    Could english society be more welcoming? I think we definitely could be, there's been a nasty undercurrent of racism since the economic crash, the poorly educated are looking for a scapegoat, and dodgy politicians will quite happily use it to further their own plans.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  4. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yea ok, I'll come to that, as I have mulled those questions over myself a little..

    Just one observation before I do so.. I have a couple of Polish guys working at ourplace. One of them was saying how the other day how his kids would have been eligible to vote - if they were old enough. Yep there was a discussion about the EU in the canteen the other day. Anyway - do you think the average person is going to look at a family like that and see the kids as "British". I don't think so - they are going to see immigrants and that's it. I mean technicalities aside - what do you think; is it fair or not fair to see them as "immigrants". And what kind of difference do you think it makes in the debate, if any. I ask that because the distinction seemed pretty important, the way you made it.

    As for me. I have thought about it and I really feel like there's only two ways I can look at myself in this context that really matter to me. I just don't feel that strongly about citizenship - it's neither here nor there I suppose.. I think in terms if culture and ethnicity. Ethnically I am Greek Cypriot and culturally I am a mix of that and English/British. Yes technically I am a British Citizen, but my citizenship in of itself is not of much significance. Culturally I do feel part if this place - 100% definitely - more so than where my folks came from. I'm proud to be a british citizen, but I am struggling to find any more meaning to citizenship beyond the cultural fellowship I share with the people here.

    You know there' that saying if you were born in a barn does that make you a horse? what about if you were born in a plane over the Pacific ? it
    seems like the location of your birth is almost like a technicality. The cultural part comes from growing up not from simply the location of birth. For example I could have a two year old (this is all hypothetical) and go back to Cyprus. 10 years later I don't think it hardly matters one bit where they were born.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Your cultural identity generally relates to where you were brought up, so there is some correlation with where you are born (although obviously it's not 100%).

    Either way, if people mistake others for being immigrants, when there not, that's people being wrong, belief is not fact, and shouldn't be treated or respected as such.
  6. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yes sure, I don't really disagree with any of that. I think though in comparison to other places it's perhaps not as bad - yet. That is something that concerns me - it would be awful if it got worse from here and I think we have come to a sort of tipping point.. depending on how things pan out, it could calm down a bit, or flare up. But that's just my feeling.

    One of the things I think could help is if we had more clarity and purpose around immigration not just here but EU in general. having a "free for all" internally where you have no plan or something you aim at - you then have to react on the fly to whatever circumstance throws up - including those outside of the internal movement eg. refugees etc. Is that good, can it work in the longer term? What about when bad stuff happens. I think we're seeing that the stress of what this sort of policy of "freedom" is threatening. I am actually all for freedoms - I just wonder is this the best way. My sisters best mate growing up now lives and works in Australia. People can still be free in the world, maybe not as free and easy, but everything has a trade off. I would ask is this trade off really worth it, when surely there can be other policies and agreements that could serve us in terms of freedoms as well as protect us from things we can't plan for.

    It may not be quite as easy, but people still moved around and worked abroad before all this right. People still immigrated, so to a certain extent immigrants - and their offs-prings - have always had to deal with "the locals" - some more than others.

    Something I did think of regards EU is maybe all nations try to agree on say a percentage of their population figure as an acceptable yearly allowance or cap for free movement or something like that. At least that way people have something concrete and can be perceived as fair and equal, rather than ok we just have to take whatever comes. I think it would at least help, even if only on the perceptual level..

    I take the point about growth in economies, but growth isn't everything. I always try to take a business like view in some contexts; and about GDP growth I would say "turnover is vanity, profit is sanity".
    Immigration is also a zero sum game when looked at from the wider lens than the growth of one place. For every growth in one place that is taking away from another; one place grows one place shrinks. If you look at a place like Lithuania, where my wife is from, so many Lithuanians left the place shrunk.

    If you had a federal/state style system, a real one, wouldn't it make as much or more sense to re direct resources to places so they can grow and develop rather than people simply going where the goings good?
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  7. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Sure, but getting back to the survey you could see how it might be confusing for people asked to make some guess about it all. Of course it may have been more nuanced, I don't really know.

    But yes, probably in general those numbers might well reflect the contradictory nature of people..
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award



    The EU just voted to suspend all arms sales to Saudi, the Tory UK government is very close to the saudi's -
    Which in my mind is even more reason to stay In.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Yesterday, I heard of someone working in the Foreign Office who had worked 13 years on 1 trade agreement between the UK and Australia.

    I do not know the verity of this, but it is somewhat indicative of the uncertainty surrounding the UK striking out entirely on its own, with the Union Jack (or whats left of it after the likely Scottish Independence) flying high from the ramparts; to trade anew, unhindered by unelected Brussels gravy-training Euro Herberts.
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

    If you remove the cost of paying zillions of £wonga to Brussels, to replace it with a vastly expanded and expensive Foreign Office; what does the UK gain?

    What is the difference of an army of unelected Euro Herberts and an army of unelected Westminster Herberts? - apart from everyone speaking English as their 1st language.
  11. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I find it quite interesting living in the UK. Coming from Canada I never really appreciated how much people don't identify with where they live over here. In North America where you were born or immigrated to is where you are a citizen and not where your parents were born. I know that I have patients who have been in the UK 3-4 generations yet don't think of themselves as British. This is in spite of the fact that persons from the country they consider home working in the UK don't see them as really being compatriots at all.

    You might that think that being European means that everyone is of a similar mindset in some ways but oddly enough the age old prejudices are still there bubbling under the surface. I know that a Hungarian person almost flattened a Brit when the later suggested that he might be Polish (don't call me a flipping Pole or I'll kill you!!!) . The old lady down the road emigrated to the UK and still hates the persons/nationality that ended up controlling the town she was born in (borders changed). No it's not all nicey nicey on the continent.

    So what is it to be part of it all? Do people here in Britain really feel that they are European (whatever that means)? I have persons complain to me about those foreigners and I say you mean like myself? They go no, those ''other'' ones. I go ok, you mean like my mother's family from eastern europe? Always confuses people. On the other hand while I am obviously foreign(accent) my family/relatives (other than my primary family) have been here since 1066 (seems we used to own Yorkshire/Norfolk and a few other spots ;' ) and the bloodline IS clearly British. So by the more european measure of nationality (where your blood comes from) I should definitely be classed as British (can you believe they charge $2500 for an unlimited right to stay for an eligible foreigner these days...) Can people really feel loyalty to such a nebulous concept as a continent above their own self/local/community interests? The complaints here in the UK about not liking people moving freely in the EU makes me wonder if it’s possible. If you are all European then why shouldn’t you be happy to share your wealth with other Europeans? I’m not sure if it can last in the long term so stay or go may not really matter.

    Personally I'm not quite sure what the great benefit is to being in Europe other than avoiding duties on goods being transferred between countries. I can’t get excited about one more institution that allows politicians and civil servants to run rampant without being subject to the will of the people. Laws made in Brussels aren’t made or modified by our representatives. I want to know who is responsible for the laws we follow. I also would like to be able to get them out. It’s bad enough dealing with a government that is elected let alone clandestine operatives that we know very little about (the recent TIFF negotiations were done behind closed doors and were to be voted on at a national level without any direct input from the people affected). I'd of course like to be able to remove poorly performing civil servants here as well :' ). Most countries in the world don’t live/trade/exist as part of a fixed block (read the EU) so I don’t see how it is going to be a real problem long term. We have a major economy here and I think people will always want to trade with the UK. I do know that Canada was able to get a trade agreement with Singapore in a small portion of the time it has been taking the EU to get one (since the EU has to make 28 + 1 countries happy to succeed) . I don’t like the EU interference with the non-economic issues and I would prefer to not have outside interests deciding what we should do.

    Long post but thought I would throw a few things out. I’m happy to have show me why I should think differently.

  12. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This is about the best evidence that I have seen for pro Brexit in relation to trade agreement uncertainties.

    However, if it that simple to form a Trade Agreement with Singapore, there is nothing to hinder the UK right now or in the furture, making the same trade agreement with Singapore - independently of the EU. If the EU is capable of blocking and/or overriding the same trade agreement, then that is a matter of significant concern.
  13. EmptyHandGuy

    EmptyHandGuy Valued Member

    Last edited: Feb 28, 2016
  14. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    Tricky part is you can say anything you want cleverly in a gif but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

    I haven't got time to go through the whole list at the moment but the person who made this is taking a few liberties with accuracy...

  15. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The entire Brexit yack is and will continue to be until completion, dominated by largely baseless assertions, propaganda and counter-propaganda around an uncertain future, with little evidence or rationality - just like the Scottish referendum - but worse this time round.

    However, almost no-one of any economic credibility is promoting Brexit, Ruth Lea and Neil Woodford being the 2 most noteable.

    The refugee and migration factor is what may sway the day, more than economic realities.

    In summary the only 2 interesting aspects of Brexit - for me - are a) what outcome is most likely to happen - uncertain as of now and b) what the consequences will be of the most likely outcome.

    Beyond that, Brexit is deck chair re-arrangement on the titanic as there are much bigger concerns and the wider economic outlook seems to be turning sour again.
  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Top tip!

    Attached Files:

  18. Late for dinner

    Late for dinner Valued Member

    I'm personally still looking at things before making a final decision. I guess I'm more interested in the issues than who is on one side or the other. There are people from each party both pro and against Brexit. As a foreigner I find it hard to see how most British people relate to being in the EU. Can you, anyone, explain how it directly, positively affects your life in a way that couldn't be accomplished without being an EU member? Thanks in advance.

  19. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    Here's an example for me:

    I live in Northern Ireland. As an EU citizen, I can drive down to the Republic of Ireland without any border crossings or paper work etc... Before the EU, there were border crossings and paperwork.

    Being able to drive to the Republic of Ireland without any hassle (and it's only an hour drive from Belfast to get over the border) means I can visit friends, go to martial arts seminars/competitions in Dublin, or have a little weekend break in Galway with zero fuss or without having to apply for visas etc...

    There is no guarantee that this would continue if the UK left the EU.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Freedom of movement to work in France/Germany. There's a good chance that's where I'm heading this year.
    Fredoom of movement for Europeans to work over here, without the eastern Europeans healthcare in the UK would be in an even worse state then it is.
    Working time directive, I'm a salaried employee, and my workplace has extended my hours to the maximum allowed under EU law, if I disagreed I was told I should leave.

    Having access to higher courts (not just EU, but also Echr) has stopped a lot of abuse in the UK occurring.

    Disability rights, and equal rights also are protected by the EU, we do away with those at our peril.

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