EU referendum

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by cloudz, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I think with quite a large part of the electorate being of Irish descent and because of Northern Ireland sharing a border with the Republic of Ireland, it kinda makes sense. It's not necessarily fair, but I can see an argument for it.
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well I couldn't exactly tell you what sort of immigration policy I would want here right now. But I probably got defensive too quickly as I can already see a narrative forming over being Euro sceptic equates to being some sort of nationalist, xenophobe etc. which is really bloody annoying to be honest.

    I know for example Germany is facing a population shortage therefore their policy is to try and take as many as they possibly can. It may be a struggle for them, but in the longer term it's what they need. Those situations have existed here in the past. I just think that a country that has it's owns fiscal policies as well as monetary needs to be able to exercise some sort of control. When the system here starts to struggle we owe it those already here to protect their services and quality of life to some extent at least.

    The whole ethos over this within Europe I also have to question is a free for all really the smartest way to go. Some countries extremes swings of drains and gains to cope with. Don't we want different countries to do well and prosper rather than just those that that happen to offer the most attractive prospects at any given time. Their should be equal rules and processes, checks and balances.

    There's too much that frustrates people. Like Prisoners being here that come from another European country. Within a certain timeframe they shouldn't be sentenced here and serve time here, they should be sent back in my opinion. Or at least we need something in place.

    There's more I could say about the whole thing, but we are in a mess over it, and if we don't address it the groundswell that voted UKIP is not going away. I don't want a more extreme form of nationalism here like you see in some other countries. We have our nationalists but so far a nasty wing has yet to really emerge, but I would bet it's only a matter of time if things don't get addressed in some way. That really why it's an issue for me, it doesn't actually affect my life if I don't want it too - I have the means for that, but many don't. And they do see a direct impact, rightly or wrongly and they are not best pleased about it. I also see it tied in to our sovereignty, we concede that right in a trade off - all well and good. For many years it was not the issue it has now become, you heard muttering, but you expect a small minority to be like that. It's not a small minority anymore and that should concern people and be a cause for doing something about it. Immigration has existed all my life here and more recently the EU free movement. Only now in the past year or two with gauging the countries general tone and feeling over it we seem to have reached a sort of tipping point, we just don't like something imposed on us that is giving us this grief. That helplessness is part of the problem.

    In the end Politics is about the people and addressing their concerns - we need to do that. We can't do that with the current situation with the EU, hence Cameron's move. He got something and it's good enough for now - for me, but will it be enough? I also think the timing is awkward, the global economy still faces a couple of risky years, we're in the middle of a currency war and race to the bottom. Negative rates coming in a round the world, deflationary pressure that could have awful ramifications given the leverage and debt (QE too) that has fed asset bubbles. If we go out, It could trigger bad stuff. It's just not a good climate for a Brexit.

    That's very simple to me. We keep them, they are ours.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The biggest change in voting at our last election was to support UKIP. That tells you something very clearly about what the electorate (a good chunk anyway) is generally concerned about. The government we have whilst not totally altruistically perhaps but they are giving the voters the chance to have their say on Independence from the EU.

    The Conservatives "just" won a more comfortable victory than expected, and since then their closest rival just shot themselves in the foot hugely. Voting on another government would be a waste of time in my opinion.

    This is possibly a pretty good thing. I mean politicians giving us a direct say or vote on a really big issue. I have to be impressed by that, and even be grateful. People should take the opportunity to have a look at what the issues are, what are the things that really matter - and not just to them directly - or are most immediate perhaps and vote accordingly. Gotta love democracy :p
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
  4. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The Laborious Old Toads have indeed split into 2, even if they will not admit this. The Consterperverts/Tolleys are about to do the same.

    It is true that a sizeable chunk of the UK - and other European nations' Population are very concerned about migration.

    I have some sympathy with this perception, especially those at the bottom end of society.

    However, I am not sure that leaving the EU will address this. The existing Home Office Computer system is completely obsolete with old technology, and various attempts to improve and update this system have come to very little, spanning at least 20 years. Yes this system could be revamped - at great cost and uncertain outcomes. The pro Brexit and the Cameron Loyal Tolleys folk claim that a rules system can be brought in to more selectively process the desirables from the minions. This means adding a lot more rules, bends and twists to a barely functional Computer System, and would almost certainly require a new army of Civil Servants to adjudicate and assess applicants - all very expensive and time consuming.

    If someone would make a more balanced and evidence assessment of what the options realistically are, then a more rational choice might be possible, rather than the Daily Express driven rabid rabble rousing that is todays anti foreigner mantra.

    As stated back in the 1st page - post 7 - of this thread, I do not believe this EU referendum to be as significant as some would like, to the UK's well being and future prosperity.

    Brexit is tinsel floss disguising real problems.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
  5. Prizewriter

    Prizewriter Moved on

    I think that is a great point. It is a monumental assumption to think that leaving the EU will change social issues related to immigration. You could just as easily say that more immigrants will come to the UK after we leave the EU. Either argument is based on a flimsy premise with no evidence to support it.
  6. embra

    embra Valued Member

    A Port Cullis up strategy - bypassing the Home Office's Victorian Rocketship Computer System - banning almost all foreigners from settling - most likely would reduce migration; but at the cost of annoying a lot of foreign Governments, and thus reducing the likelyhood of trading, which becomes self-defeating to the goals of the Brexit 'Great' Britain mirage.

    Some folk want this, no matter the cost and knock-on implications.
  7. embra

    embra Valued Member

    In difficult and troubled times, it is often the tactic of the begrudged, to seek overly simplistic answers to non trivial and complex problems.

    If you waste time with irrelevant diversions from real problems, what is gained? if anything?
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Yes, immigration department has been rubbish for years. I vaguely recall a piece I saw on the news some time back. It's like we completely lost track of people, a total shambles for years.

    Just makes things that much more difficult now. Sometimes perception is absolutely the most important thing. Reality is often far less important, strange as that may sound. The madness of crowds and all that.
  9. embra

    embra Valued Member

    1) Fundamentally, I do not believe much will really improve, until the existing immigrants are accounted for much better - possibly with an amnesty - the USA has this debate every now and then, nothing gets done, and the problem gets worse.
    2) More fundamentally, the existing citizens of the UK should get more from our society and successive Governments - who have been terrible in this respect; so that we can more readily have a more positive outlook towards foreigners.
    3)Perception is absolutely the most important thing - to some people who need to 'feel' good about themselves, society, their tribe etc - not me. it is to easy to get drunk on a bottle of perception. Difficult enough with reality, as it is rarely - if ever objective.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
  10. embra

    embra Valued Member

  11. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I think its important to distinguish between economic migration and the refugee crisis.
  12. embra

    embra Valued Member

    That is a fair point holy.

    However, everyone who I know to be pro Brexit, lumps the 2 together in a completely irrational diatribe of anti-foreigner rhetoric. Usually Merkel and Euro-Herberts get lumped into the same sandwich as well.

    The more you can separate the strands of complex problems, the easier (slightly) it is to have a more rational and objective analysis.
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    so i think this last part is interesting.

    my family emigrated from samos, greece to the usa in the late 60's. giovanni was actually born in the states, but of course due to family, i've got very close ties to the island my parents are from.

    people from samos (and other islands) are on the front-line of the refugee crisis. samos is literally less than a kilometer from turkey, so an easy entry point. the people i've talked to fall into roughly two camps: get the foreigners out; or, this is awesome and our economy is going to grow because of these people, we want them to stay.

    merkel is smart. the country needs an influx for their economy--workers and overall demand. smart greeks are for keeping the syrian refugees, because those people know that the only way greece is going to get out of the economic doldrums is by raising demand. in the usa, there are also a lot of people that realize that immigration helps to grow our economy.

    but i disagree with how any immigrant is tarred. they're either "the other" and all that entails, or they're here "illegally", or some combination. from a pure economic standpoint, in my opinion, we (the usa) should be opening our doors to anyone that wants to come here and work. that means id cards, social security, everything.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    from the link above -

    ''An uninformed debate

    The ratcheting up of the immigration issue has partly led to David Cameron promising to radically renegotiate Britain’s membership of the EU. If that comes to pass, it’s the British people in the data above that he needs to consider rather than the phantom Romanian horde.

    Changing attitudes in the immigration debate is a monumental uphill battle when you consider how far perception is from reality. As part of a survey the RSS commissioned from Ipsos MORI last year, people were asked what percentage of the British population they thought were immigrants? The collective answer was 31%. The actual figure is 13%.

    Even more confusing, another poll from Comres asked if all citizens of other EU countries should have the right to live and work in the UK? Only 36% agreed, against 46% who disagreed.

    The pollsters then asked a different question, should British people be free to live and work anywhere in the EU? This time 52% agreed with only 26% disagreeing. It seems the British want to have their gâteau and eat it.''
  17. embra

    embra Valued Member

    The refugee crisis is somewhat orthogonal to Brexit in/out, but it may even dwarf Brexit, such is the potential severity of the problem.

    EU leaders are falling out with each other right, left and centre; as how to best deal with the refugees. I understand that NATO ships are patrolling the mediterranean now, how actively they are involved is another question.

    However, if you read this article, it tells you that in the 2 months of this year alone, the rate of refugee arrival to Greece, is triple the rate of the first 6 months of last year.

    This is a very real problem, and makes our UK posturings and pontifications reg. Brexit, quite trivial by comparison.
  18. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Back somewhat more to Brexit.

    1) There may not be much of an EU left by the time the vote comes along, such is the fall-out of EU leaders and clamours from various nations' populations.
    2) A successful Brexit leave result can easily result in new demands for a new Scottish referendum, as the mass of Scots are pro EU. In that instance, the UK will resemble something like Yugoslavia post Tito, and the Union Jack meaningless. That said, there are questions as to how easily whats left of the EU would accept the uK leaving but Scotland staying as a secessionist state, with clamours for secession from Spain (Catalonina), Belgium (Flanders) and Italy (South Tirol, Venice and various northern alliances.)

    All in all, the potential for a 1 big huge mess should not to be dismissed lightly.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I find this one interesting. For example I am a second generation immigrant (born here), my wife is first generation immigrant.

    Where does this place us in the poll. Were people estimating all immigrants / foreigners they perceive or just newcomers. Is the 13% just newcomers or include British citizens that were born here; but to peoples perception still might appear or be perceived as foreigners/immigrants... To be fair how is anyone supposed to know these kind of details about people they don't really know.

    Is there more detailed information on the survey/ statistics. As I feel that the discrepancy here between perception and reality could be - at least in part - down to factors like these.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2016
  20. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Way back, my Grandfather came from Argentina to Scotland, stayed a few years and then scarpered, never to be heard of again.

    So far, no-one has threatened me with the Falklands War 2.

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