Part of proper etiquette is to "turn and kneel". We start or end class by turning and kneeling away from the flags and Kuk Sa Nim's picture, to adjust our dobok. Generally speaking you want to turn away from the flags and high(er) ranking folks to adjust things. But... what's the actual "rules" here? I ask because the other day a Dahn Bo Nim was leading Mohm Puhl Ki, after it was over it he said to "turn and kneel" to have the class adjust their dobok's before coming to attention to start into things. Now, in the back of the dojang a Kyo Sa Nim was working with someone. So, when the DBN said to "turn and kneel", some people turned to the back (away from flags but facing the Kyo Sa Nim), others turned to the left. What's correct? I do understand that flags/KSN are paramount to face away from, but I also thought folks of higher rank were... so if say someone was in the back where you normally turn away, then you need to find some other direction that is still as away from all things as possible. Of course if you were surrounded, you just did the best you could. When I spoke with the DBN tonight, he was telling me that he was told it's not necessarily "higher ranks" -- they're not a consideration. If it's the highest ranking in the dojang, the school owner, Masters, yes you turn from them too... but your regular "black belts" you don't. Now, that's what he was told, and in fact he mentioned that he had as well been told a few (different) things. I'm wanting to know not just specific answers to specific situations, but I'd like to know the underlying premise and Korean tradition that's being upheld here. If I can know what the actual guiding principle is, that'd be a bigger help, but of course getting specific answers for specific situations is ok too. I didn't have an opportunity to ask my SBN tonight, but it's nagging at me enough that I figure I'd just ask here. Thanx.
I'm sorry I don't know the principle behind it, and I hope that discussion can still happen. I do have a suggestion... if a high-ranking black belt is in the back of the room, we'll direct the class to face one of the sides (rail side/parking lot or street). I try not to face any higher rank if I can.
Here in Seoul we are just always told to face the opposite direction to the flags (we dont have a little picture of kuk sa nim), there has never been any mention of a high ranking person changing that rule, ive never turned to the side, even back in England i always faced the opposite direction to the flags and kneeled with the left knee up. That however doesnt mean that i am doing it right, its just the way id always done it. Unless kuk sa nim himslef was standing infront of me i dont think id ever change unless i was told to.
So if they don't have a picture of Kuk Sa Nym in Korea, why do we have to have one in england? Do other places have it too? Just curious. I don't know why actually, but we also have to face away from the flags to do our do boks up, but it would be interesting to know why!
is that the norm in korea? we were having this discussion today, and that ckjn in joo suh is now 10th dan but his title isn't kuk sa nim. what is his title now? presumably it isn't chohng kwan jahng nim anymore??
because we are part of the WKSA, run by in hyuk suh. afaik korean schools are part of the KKSA which are run by cjkn in joo suh.
According to this thread, http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64559&highlight=title his title is Hae Jang Nym, meaning chairman.
Most WKSA people assume that a pic of the org grandmaster is all that is "allowed "on the wall. In most cases in dojangs the GM is MAYBE one of the pictures maybe but certainly not the only one, and often not the most prominent one. Usually the Chief instructor/owner of the Dojang has the most prominent pic (it is after all HIS/HER school) and in many cases he will display his direct instructor as well out of real respect. Does it seems odd that the school OWNER is not "allowed" on the wall of a WKSA school? Why is that?? Isn't that is a little insulting to the owner?
Do you mean on the wall at all or on the same wall as KSN? Master Lee has his picture on the wall (a bigger one I might add) although it is not on the same wall as the flags & KSN's picture. We turn and face his picture during bow-in on the rare occasions he isn't there. Don't all schools do that or are you referring to having a picture specifically on the same wall as KSN and the flags? As far as it being insulting to the owner, I wouldn't know. You would have to ask Master Lee.
To be honest i havent been able to get down to kuk sool for a week or so because of work so im not quite sure i can ask next time im down the gym~
Getting back to the original topic.... (not that the side-topic isn't interesting, it is, but I don't want my original question to be lost either) So what is the proper etiquette of "turn and kneel"? What's the underlying principle? What few responses we've had here are still in the same boat that I'm in, where we've all got conflicting ways of handling it, so there's no resolve to the question.
I mean in the most prominent place in the school! If Master Lee has a pic on the wall , good. He ought to, and it should be front and center. After all HE developed that school and presides over it. Not KSN. Just like every other owner of each school/club. But the "standard WKSA picture arrangement" would lead the casual observer to assume that KSN presides over that school. He presides over an organisation...only. Not each individual dojang... Some would argue that he also presides over the art, but there are so many other sources of kuk sool available now that are not wksa, that one could argue that no individual or org does. I happen to think that KSN, for the most part, does still preside over the art. No...WKSA/KSN stuff on the front wall is all that is "allowed" Since he already has his bigger pic on the wall.... that is answer enough!! It seems that if he worked his a$$ off for 15+ years to develop a dojang then he deserves the primary spot within that school..PERIOD. and NO ONE has the right to require otherwise. I think KSN deserves recognition in each school within his organization, but not in such a way that totally ignores the instructor that built the school. As far as turn and kneel is concerned. afaik left foot back , pivot and drop to the right knee, adjust stuff as needed, hands on knot, upon call, hands remain on knot whilst pivot on right knee into formal sitting facing front, then Ritual salute begins. strict protocol seems to require that one NEVER show your back to the flag or adjust uniform facing the flag, those things seem in conflict. Proper U.S. flag protocol requires when you enter/leave the training area you always "step in/out" maintaining your front to the flag until both feet are out. (based on side entry) if your entry/exit is forward facing then you step back upon exit and turn away only when BOTH feet are outside the threshhold.. Since none of this stuff is written down and communicated other than verbally, then it is left to interpretation and tends to vary, just like everything else... hope this helps
Why turn away? What I've experienced about Asian culture and I grew up around Western culture, is that it is rude to face people while you are adjusting your clothing. I think it comes down to wanting to present yourself as best as possible. We groom ourselves in private. It is just modest and of common sence: If your fly was open, and someone pointed this out to you, you would TURN AWAY to check your fly and fix the problem. No one likes to be seen "touching themselves" and smoothing things. Why kneel? It is more obvious what your are doing so someone doesn't accidently come over and disturb you while you are having a private moment?
the majority of schools in the uk aren't full time, purpose built dojangs with flags and pictures permanently fixed to the wall. classes are usually held in school sportshalls/community centres etc which need to be set up at the start of each nights training and generally the school owner will always be present. it is enough to have to carry around flags, a pic of KSN, weapons, focus/bat pads, kick shields, sparring gear and everything else that is needed without carrying around pics of the school owner and his/her instructor aswell.
First, I gotta agree with Choi's take on the pictures. This is the key, really. (emphasis added) I've wondered about those conflicts too, since things like you're not to expose the bottoms of your feet, but then once you turn and kneel there's the bottom of your feet (at least the right one). Help? Yes and no. It didn't help because it didn't answer the question, but yes it did because it shows there's really no answer to the question. Thanx for the reply.
This is the sort of thing I was looking for. Is what's written above why KSN says to turn and kneel? Don't know (esp. the kneel part), but it's certainly a good "common sense" reasoning of things. But it doesn't address the issues of "KSW etiquette". That is, the above implies that if you're fixing your dobok you just turn away from anyone and everyone, regardless of rank (or even if they're a KSW practitioner). But some of the confusion I'm trying to clear up is that some have said it only matters for those of particular rank, but others have said it doesn't. So is there a line drawn somewhere? That I'd still like to know.
I used to think some high muckymuck should sit down and write a nice long, dry book about every tiny, minuscule little point of etiquette in martial arts, Asian culture, and KSW. Everything from why we put our hands on our belts to the ranking system, whether it matters if one flag is higher than another, whether vertical or horizontal rows of students are better, and who should call the salute under what circumstances. I think the writer would go MAD in a few days of trying to detail every little notion. I suspect eventually the writer would feel how a rabbi would feel trying to decipher if the letter or spirit of the law was more important, and TONNES of new chapters of the Talmud would spontaneously erupt onto every rabbi's desk, to be devoured before the next Sabbat. Everyone being asked to review the resulting document would have a different opinion upon every single point of etiquette. The writer would then decide that every opinion should be listed, and weighed according to how close to a direct Asian connection the holder has, rank of the opinion holder, even rank of the opinion holder's last teacher, and the number of years spent on rank and within a certain radius of where ever World Headquarters has ever been. Then, a psychological test would need to be given to each opinion holder, to determine again how much their opinion is based upon experience, and how much upon imagined or real slights or past personal errors. Fear of breaking a rule would have to be factored in, as well as whether one feels students should be punished and in what way for breaking the slightest of these rules. The book would quickly be proved wrong, and everyone would say that the book was never meant to teach the etiquette, but just to remind the student of what they had already learned in class, that nothing replaces a good teacher. Actually, I think etiquette should be looked at like techniques. We spend a long time just on “memorization” then several years on “precision” and then forever on “smoothness”. There are “I recognized that” ways, “good enough” ways, better ways, “can’t tell the difference” ways, “we’ll cover it again in another class” ways, ["pretty good!" ways, and powerful ways,] but there is not “one perfect technique”. Maybe we could use just a little pamphlet detailing the broader etiquette categories, maybe just a few pages in the back of the “ever upcoming” fourth and fifth degree book. Maybe “perfect” etiquette is one of those secret techniques only taught at Master level, so the lower ranking people have to be ever seeking. There is no line, there is only a forever grey area where you can hardly tell if it is getting darker or lighter. You can only tell long after you have passed an area what shade it was back then, but you can still hardly tell what shade it is now. And nothing does replace a good teacher.
I do. I turn away from as many people as possible in or out of KSW, particularly anyone who outranks me. I would say it is better to turn away from one higher ranking person than 20 lower ranking people unless something is really hanging out or there is blood, then turning away from as many other people as possible or turning TOWARD the highest ranking person might be the best course to take. Let's say I hurt myself during a demo. I'd rather turn towards higher ranking people (who either might be able to help or understand) until I composed myself, than towards the white belts, who might be scarred for life terrified of getting hurt themselves and quit MA forever. Even better to hide it from everyone. You just try to make better decisions every time. Grey area.
Do you think it could have anything to do with building muscle memory? Look how often we turn and kneel in our techniques and forms.
