'Essential batto & Kenjutsu: Killing Arts Of the Japanese Sword'

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Dead_pool, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. ScottUK

    ScottUK More human than human...

    Even a beginner SMR practitioner should be able to tell quality of JSA, no?
     
  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I don't think it takes any training at all to know that grabbing a katana with a bare hand isn't a good idea.
    And that showing how to do the same thing two different ways in one video probably shows that you didn't do it right in one of those ways.
     
  3. Joseki

    Joseki Valued Member

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=V7F68xAjIG4"]YouTube[/ame] in ref to holding a blade/ question that if you want as Kuroda Sensei in my book is one if not the best..
    Spoke to taran (yes he is a good mate of mine) and they do use longer handled swords ?
    beginner yeap as my sword was linked to the ju jutsu i done years back so on and off about 20 years of sword but was never my thing to be honest (dont mean i cant use one! do a great conan act...) as i choose the Jutsu path which i been doing a lot longer :)

    Taran is a good swords man has a great knowledge of what he does :) as for my statement yes was a good one as i dont class anyone as idiots, not behind their backs?
     
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Where in that vid was there anything like what we see in the vid of that Taran fella?
    I saw bracing the blunt edge of the sword with the other hand on occasion but the hands were holding the handle portion of the sword the rest of the time.
    They may be getting close in some cases but as there was no tsuba it was hard to tell.
    In the vid of Taran he clearly holds the blade section of the sword in one take and then in the slow motion version he's holding the handle. There's a tsuba (or indicator thereof) on his sword so you can see.
    Here's what we're discussing...

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dTk4BoMIvk&list=PL190C339BF115D4F3&index=3&feature=plpp_video"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dTk4BoMIvk&list=PL190C339BF115D4F3&index=3&feature=plpp_video[/ame]
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter


    you do not need to train with Ashida Kim to see he is talentless; you do not need to be a plumber to tell someone they have a leaky pipe

    I tried drawing on the monitor with a big crayon once but no-one ever replied to my posts......
     
  6. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

  7. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Yes we figured.
     
  8. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    When I see things like this, they look like they are playing. Besides being unrealistic, some of it is just plain silly.

    I would like to see him do the same using a shinken.
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I don't think there was ever a samurai that twirled his katana through his fingers like you see in that video.
    It's like a little majorette flourish rather than something combative in nature.
    It's not even culturally significant like a chiburi type motion.
    It seems to be tacked on there just to look a bit more fancy to someone that doesn't know much about hitting someone with a sword.
    I mean I've seen good combative reason for "twirling" a weapon in certain cases and in certain ways but that twirling is much less flash than that and is part of a larger (and more important) combative movement.

    Edit...I'd also hazard that a proper katana of proper weapns grade steel would handle differently to a bokken and therefore that little twirl wouldn't even be possible with the real thing.
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Out of interest what experience does he have in traditional Japanese swordsmanship?

    I see the following on the website:

    · 5th Dan (Godan) Junsei Ryu Hoshin Jutsu Renmei
    · 5th Dan (Godan) Junsei Ryu Sen-Ha Kobujutsu Kai
    · 5th Dan (Godan) Junsei Sakura Battojutsu Kai
    · Senior Coach (Level 3) Junsei Ryu Hoshin Jutsu Renmei
    · 5th Dan (Godan) Aikoushin Kobujutsu Renmei (As an affiliated member)
    · 5th Dan (Godan) International Martial Arts Association
    · 5th Dan (Godan) Independent Unarmed Combat Association
    · 2nd Dan (Nidan) World Ju-Jitsu Federation (Incorporating: World Ju-Jitsu and Kobudo Organisation, Sakai Ju-Jitsu Kobudo Renmei, Kokusai Ju-Jitsu Renmei, Kokusai Kobudo Renmei)
    · 2nd Dan (Nidan) Hankyo Kempo Ju-Jutsu Renmei
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    For the record I have no problem with people doing their own thing as long as they are honest and don't try to make out it is something it is not.


    Also at the end of the day if you are so taken with keeping traditions alive and their integrity then why not study an actual living tradition with a history and real content behind it?

    I really don't understand putting together a hybridised system,which is essentially a modern one, and then making a big deal of wanting to ensure the traditional arts aren't watered down.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  12. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Please correct me if I'm wrong; however Junsei Ryu appears to be primarily based off his teacher's past training with Robert Clark (World Ju-Jitsu Federation) and Richard Morris.
     
  13. Joseki

    Joseki Valued Member

    best way to find out is to ask Taran yourselves? stop attacking someone that is not here its not a big thing, go train with him you may even learn something :) lol
     
  14. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    *sigh*

    Please show me where I have attacked him? In fact you'll note I have said I don't have a problem with people doing their own thing, as long as they are honest.

    It's a very simple thing.

    You are a good friend of his, you think he is a good swordsman. As well as that his site has numerous ranks listed.

    However none of that tells us what style of swordsmanship he has studied.

    Now to my mind that is a little odd.

    He has sword in the system he teaches so what is that based on? Now it is either based in an actual traditional ryu-ha or it has been created in recent years. If it is the first then which ryu-ha if it us the latter then what development process did it go through?

    With a "modern" system of JSA there are certain questions that come to mind. After all if you want to study JSA then you want that don't you? Not someone's idea of what JSA might be.

    You aren't doing your friend any good really because you can't offer up any real info to the type of questions we may ask. This type of thing doesn't require a dojo visit, it's the easiest question in the world of traditional martial arts.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  15. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Oh btw I bet there is a good chance he is aware of this thread ;).
     
  16. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    I don't believe anyone is attacking him. They are critiquing him (and his videos).

    Seriously though, we do not have to train with him to discuss him.

    Personally, there is nothing of value that I see in those videos that I would benefit from training with him. However, honestly it depends what people are looking for and I'm sure he has many students who are happy with their training.

    They may be a little misled about what it is they are ultimately learning but that is a different issue.
     
  17. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    You really think so? :evil:
     
  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Exactly.

    All that has happened is that a few members have raised question about those clips.

    I've asked the odd question about his background. Sorry but there's nothing outrageously offensive in that.

    Answer the questions or don't answer them, it's easy. However having a hissy about being asked makes you look like a right eejit.
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Because I live in Canada

    Do you even know how the internet works old boy? :)
     
  20. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Dean's been nice. So have most others. I'm not really feeling that, myself.

    Bluntly, I get that Taran's a friend of yours, and you're not impressed with the description of him as an "idiot", but the simple fact remains that he is either willfully deceiving people, or he is fantasy driven and incredibly delusional. He claims to want to preserve traditional Japanese martial arts, but has no connection to them... and has no place in their preservation, as he has nothing to do with them.

    There was nothing in the clip of Kuroda where he takes hold of the blade (wrapping his hand around it in a way that would simply sever his own fingers as Taran does), so I have no idea why you thought it would help his cause at all. Additionally, the length of the tsuka is irrelevant, as, in the clip of Taran's, he obviously and noticably grabs hold of the blade above the tsubadome (the rubber stopper for the guard) with his right hand in the "faster" version... and then corrects that to a grip on the tsuka itself (with both hands). Bluntly, he misses the first time, in an incredibly obvious and amateur mistake that, if he was using a real sword, would require quite a lot of microsurgery to remedy. And there's no excuse for that.

    Hang on, you said it was in your "****o (sic) Muso Ryu" training, in which you received Okuiri... there's no jujutsu in Shinto Muso Ryu. And there's no such art (that I'm aware of, or could find any reference to) as "****o Muso Ryu Jujutsu".... there's ****o Ryu Karate, and there was a Muso Ryu Jujutsu at the end of the 19th Century, beginning of the 20th, but that's about all I could find...

    What I'm getting at is that, if you trained in Shinto Muso Ryu, you didn't train in Jujutsu there (which is where you earlier said you got your sword experience from)... but, if you trained in a "****o Muso Ryu Jujutsu", I think you should probably be aware that you were likely taken for a ride there as well. And, if that's the case, I wouldn't really put any stock in your ability to recognise good, or even legit sword.

    Er, no, he's not... and no, he doesn't. And there's nothing being done behind Taran's back... it's all out here in public. Some posters are anonymous, yeah.... but hey, I'm not. However, I will give Taran some benefit of the doubt... mainly in that he's basically following what he was taught from Brian Wrightson and Ash McKee, who are the ones who made this stuff up. So, if he's an idiot, it's just because he hasn't educated himself in what he's doing... as it's really not what he thinks it is.

    But I tell you what. Let's go through a number of the clips, and show you what we mean. Oh, but for the record, your line about the only way to tell the credibility of Taran's system being to go and visit him? Uh, no it isn't. This is another way.

    Right, to the clips.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a18eDiA0HAk"]Junsei Ryu Naginata No Kata - YouTube[/ame]
    Junsei Ryu Naginata.

    First thing to understand is that Taran here has absolutely no clue how a naginata is used. He's using the thing like a Ryukyu Bo, which is just plain bizarre. It ain't a bo, and it ain't Okinawan in methodology.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNYDSCYrfAI"]Junsei Ryu Basic Tessen Kata (First Movements Of The Iron Fan) - YouTube[/ame]
    Tessenjutsu.

    Uh, again, no it's not. This is very different to Tessenjutsu, firstly in that Japanese tessen are not opened in combative use. This is based on Hong Kong Kung Fu movies, and has no combative pedigree or basis at all. He'd doing a damn dance.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HS4EafuJLw"]Junsei Dachi Kata (Basic Fighting Stances) - YouTube[/ame]
    A postures pattern.... given the name of "Dachi Kata".

    Uh, firstly, these are largely movie and karate postures... including the famous "crane stance" from Karate Kid, for crying out loud! Next, it's not a kata. Thirdly, "Dachi" (well, "tachi", unless joined with a preceding word) refers to "upright", not stances, and is a way of identifying upright postures... and is a karate term, not a Jujutsu one (or any natively Japanese systems). And it's all rather bad.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qdT71Ij_KA"]Junsei Kenjutsu Embu 1 (4 Corners) - YouTube[/ame]
    Kenjutsu Embu

    Oh, dear gods, where to start?!?! Firstly, it's not an Embu... that's a "martial demonstration". This is a drill. They get nearly every single piece of terminology wrong on almost all pages of their site, as well as continuously throughout the clips (but he has a "great knowledge"? Really?), but we'll return to that. The actual method itself? Look, to put it bluntly, Taran wants to die. He starts way, way too close, at a range where, if the opponent was half awake, he would already be cut and killed, the cuts are not directed towards the opponent at all, instead just banging the things against each other, first above their heads, then low, the cuts to the opponent are badly targeted, with very suspect distance, and are relying on the opponent already falling before he's been cut... and that twirl thing that gets insisted on at the end? Movie-style garbage that would see you cutting your own fingers off of dropping your sword. No zanshin, no hyoshi, no sense of ma-ai, no sense of seme, no kahanashin, no sense, really. There is no swordsmanship here, it's just chambara. And if you don't know those words, you're really not in a position to argue validity of Japanese sword methods with us.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CckeibHkH4"]Junsei Ryu Hoshin Jutsu Renmei Basic Breakfalls - YouTube[/ame]
    Basic Ukemi

    Okay, the idea of employing Ukemi to aid, or provide a counter is fine (but bluntly it's an attempt to differentiate themselves without any real understanding... oh, and it's "Oo-keh-mee", not "yoo-keh-mee"), but there's a lot of issues here... my personal favourite is the first one (Mae Ukemi)... not for the initial action, as that's not terrible, but not great, it's for when our demonstrator rolls over onto his side in preparation to counter the attacker... and slaps the ground as he rolls over! What on earth for?!?! Slapping the ground during a breakfall is a way of dissipating the energy from the impact, so it doesn't get transferred into your body, winding you from a throw... there's no impact, as he's just rolling over! Completely unnecessary, wasteful, pointless action... and it's hardly the only example found. From there, we have the usual problems in poor and badly understood ukemi, of dangerous actions, all culminating in the zenpo ukemi (forwards roll over the shoulder), where he comes up in what's called shini ashi... "dead foot". Big, big mistake. Bad, bad demonstration.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WRSdJnSbs0"]Junsei Ryu: Embu no Sai, Ichiban Henka (Sai Embu 1st Variation) - YouTube[/ame]
    Two Person Sai Embu

    Again, this isn't an Embu.... Do I need to point out how bad this one is? With the turning of the back, the ineffective and out of range "attacks", and so on, or should I just point out that the point of these weapons is not to be used against each other, but against things like swords, so he's missed the actual damn point of the weapon in the first place?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FsMYtfl6Ks"]Osoto Makikomi Into Tawara Gaesh - YouTube[/ame]
    Osoto Makikomi into Tawara Gaeshi

    For Scott, who didn't want to comment on the jujutsu there... this is terrible. There is a lot of wasted action, a complete failure to control the opponents balance, a bad habit of Taran's of putting himself in the worse position (tactically)... and the throw nearly drops the "attacker" on Taran's own head!

    Look, I'll be blunt here. I can pull issues, deep flaws, and so on out of pretty well each and every clip I've seen... and it all comes back to the simple fact that there is no real basis to anything that is shown. It's all made up. There is nothing authentic or actually traditional in anything found in any source... from the techniques (which often are missing all the vital aspects of traditional Japanese martial arts, the very things that Taran is claiming he's wanting to "preserve"... but just how he can do that without having the first clue about them is beyond me) to the history, to the terminology. I mean, they have, on their list of instructors, a memorial page to Brian Wrightson, credited as the founder of a modern Jujutsu system (the Hankyo Kempo Jujutsu that Taran has his rank in on the list Dean provided), in which they talk about him:

    Er, Kancho literally means "Hall Chief", typically rendered as "President" when applying to an organisation... it doesn't mean "headmaster", nor is there any reference in it to even being a teacher. It's like claiming the CEO of a retail chain is the top salesman. So his translation is out, as is his reason, as titles such as Shihan and Hanshi have that meaning. And I really don't think they have a clue about the term "Soke", especially considering the number of "soke's" mentioned, referenced, or connected to the group there.

    Add that to the training methods that, frankly, aren't Japanese. The form of kata used, a solo exercise (and seen here in the "postures" kata, the naginata one, and so on) simply isn't a Japanese way of training for anything other than Kyudo and Iaido... because of the equipment, primarily. So what's Taran actually preserving? From the evidence of his own clips, he doesn't understand any of the weaponry, he doesn't understand any of the combative principles, he doesn't understand the essential aspects of Japanese martial arts, he doesn't know or understand Japanese training methodology, he doesn't know or understand Japanese terminology.... but he's concerned that traditional Japanese martial arts need preserving? By him? Seriously? I mean, in the UK, I'm aware of a large number of Koryu dojo and groups, ranging from Shinto Muso Ryu, to Takeuchi Ryu, to Hontai Yoshin Ryu, to Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (a range of different forms), to Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Araki Ryu, Sosuishi Ryu, and so on... there's plenty of people who actually know what they're doing, and actually know the subject, who are preserving the traditional Japanese arts... and Taran might find that there's a couple of options very close to him... but he's really going to have to start over, as he's got so many bad ideas, misunderstandings, and plainly, outrightly inaccurate garbage in what he thinks is right, that it'd be one hell of an ego blow for him to do so.... mind you, if he's serious, that'd be the way to do it, not the misguided mess he's currently going through.

    But the biggest issue is one I brought up earlier, and Dean has reiterated.... if Taran is concerned in preserving traditional martial arts.... why doesn't he train them? What he'd doing is completely unrelated, missing everything he's wanting to preserve, and is based in delusional fantasies of what he thinks they are, or should be. He really doesn't have a clue.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2012

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