Escrima sticks that are indestructible.

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by MaxG, Apr 19, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com


    LOL, I gotta admit I am a heavy hitter, I believe in training some drills with a decent impact. 4 weeks is reasonable for the cheap ass crap sticks I normally use, it's a bit unsettling when you shell out £££ for "decent" sticks and they last only half a session.

    The only thing my sticks ever hit is tyres, other sticks (always rattan), kick/punch bags and people.
     
  2. ryangruhn

    ryangruhn Valued Member

    A quick question to shoot out for everyone who has purchased my sticks:


    Any breaks yet?


    Gruhn
     
  3. oneoblivion

    oneoblivion New Member

    I have tried a lot of different plastics since I was frequently breaking good rattan when striking a concrete pell wrapped in carpet. If you really want to hit solid targets hard you will break even heavy rattan.

    Anyway, look in the phone book for plastic suppliers and try nylon md, delrin or polycarbonate. They are all pretty much indestructable and 8 feet of 7/8 will cost you about 30 dollars. The delrin sticks I have will dent steel pipe without even being scratched.

    On the downside, they all transmit much more shock to your hands than bahi or rattan. I ended up cord wrapping mine. The materials are also much heavier than even kamagong. I use 3/4 and 7/8 as the 1 inch stuff was far too heavy for me. They will also tear up rattan sticks pretty fast during hard contact stick clashing. (erm and they hurt much more than rattan does during "accidents")

    I save rattan for wekaf style sparring and training with other people.
     
  4. Geijhan

    Geijhan New Member

    I tape mine up before I use them these days or at most after a session or 2. It seems to prolong the lifespan mainly because there's no "early fraying".

    Of course, I'm relatively new (about 18 months now) so I don't have a reliable "database" of stick lifespans yet. :cool:
    So far, I've had my first pair last me half a year (getting to know the ropes et al.) with taping, then a pair that lasted a bit over a month (Oh, I'll get around to taping them..err...whaddayamean, broken?) and every pair thereafter about 3 months.

    I'll start getting worried when I wear out practice knives. :D
     
  5. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    As KCP Sensei said a few weeks ago he did not want to mention why he had a falling out with Eskrimador Supplies but then here he is saying how bad our sticks are I had better explain my side too then.

    Especially as FMA Direct is now phoning every body in his phone book telling them about this pair of sticks that fell apart and that everyone should read this thread. I would not mind but it is my friends too that he is phoning and making slanderous comments about my family. All because a pair of sticks were not to someones liking.

    Mr Sensei here did not like the sticks he received as they were too light, but instead of sending them back for replacements, he broke them on purpose.

    How do I know this.....well here we go....

    I had 3 independant experts and well respected Fma'ers look at the one stick that had broke and they all said the same things.....

    The stick did not actually snap, so it is not a faulty stick.

    It was split all the way down the stem for about 10 inches. (shows there must of been leveredge)

    The central core was not in tact, it was in fact bent in half. (again shows leveredge)

    The stick was flat one side and bowed the other which shows there has been some element of leveredge.

    There was rubber fibres in between the stick strands and what looked like a footprint.

    Where it had done the old coconut shy effect around the damaged area, there was no broken strands, so it obviously was not used for hitting any thing.

    There was very few impact marks, so it was not used for a training session atall.

    I think this just about covers it.

    And the other stick is now safely in my bag, which I have been using for about 6 weeks, completly in tact, thank-you. And it was the perfect pair to one I already had.

    And another factor remains unsaid. I gave him his money back, a full refund including postage.

    This is the only case I have had in this instance which is why I asked for the sticks to be returned. Usually if a stick is faulty, it snaps clean in two....this means it is a dry piece of rattan and in the couple of case in 5 years that I have had, I have always replaced the sticks at my own expense.

    Lots of love :love:

    Lucy
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2006
  6. LabanB

    LabanB Valued Member

    Hi Lucy

    I the ten years I've been making and selling sticks I've had a hadnfull fail quickly. I had about four pairs fall apart in the same session. These were new sticks made from rattan bought from my usual supplier and the overall impression I got was that the rattan had been allowed to dry to far and so had become brittle. When I made them into sticks the first good workout they got tore them apart.

    Apart from those the only other two sticks I've had fail have both been owned by the same (big) student, who broke one cleanly in half whilst practising a, erm, sensitivity drill!!! But thats Ken for you.

    The first lot where definetly faulty rattan. The second, where also faulty, but having a big lumox like Ken bending them doesn't help.

    In the first case I replaced the sticks asap. In the second I sold Ken some new sticks ...;-)

    I've seen the quality of the equipment Lucy is selling and I'm waiting to get some money off one of my guys before I order another three swords. If you've been standing all over your sticks you should expect them to fail. If you want to tell people about the failure, fine, go ahead, but do explain how the failure came about. Oh, and do explain what the result of getting back to Lucy with the problem was.

    Bill
     
  7. Scotty Dog

    Scotty Dog www.myspace.com/elhig

    Thanks for the info Lucy,

    I don't want this thread turning into a flame war but I'm willing to keep it open at the moment to allow SCP_Kensei to reply.
     
  8. Tittan

    Tittan Valued Member

    I've still got my first pair of sticks, and sometimes when we do basic drills I bring them out and use them because they're the best ones I've ever had. Most of the time I use newer sticks though, and those break sometimes.

    4 weeks to break a stick? You've got to be smacking them real hard against your opponents stick, or you've got rotten rattan or something ;) My average is at least three months of "normal" use. (But then again, who decides what's "normal"?)
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2006
  9. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    Christ I thought this thread had died a death, apparently not and so i'll take the time to reply.

    First off I was trying to keep Escrimador Supplies name out of this thread, however I was talking anecdotally about recent poor wearing sticks, in an attempt to get details of a suppier for "better" sticks, and obviously someone made the connection. That is an honest statement of my motives and I have no wish to argue about it, especially since there can be no proving such a thing in this environment.

    However since Lucy decided to bring up the specifics of the stick return fiasco I will go into it.

    I purchased one set of Palasan Sticks for Escrimador Supplies a number of weeks ago.
    When the package arrived I was surprised by the thinness of stick and the light weight (The combined weight of both stick being on the bottom end of the weight scale for a single stick advertised on the website).
    I rang Lucy to enquire "whether or not this is something I should be worried about" and was told that the weight differential was due to the sticks being "A natural product", and should not affect their durability.
    Now I admit to being a big guy and a heavy hitter, and I feel more comfortable with heavy sticks, however since we had at that time recently started doing a lot of Low armour, Padded stick training I figured that, should the sticks be reasonable hard wearing then they would make excellent cores for padded sticks (weinghin in at 120-130g each meant that even with padding the experience should be alright).

    I used the sticks in question at my Kali class that night, training with my MAte tristan, who was also trying out some new sticks (recent supply difficulties with our usual supplier (i.e. The gym we train at) prompting us both to seek new sticks elsewhere).

    The drill we practised were the IKAEF Phase one double stick drills:

    We also practised the Switches for Sinawali 4 (Heaven 3 and Double strike switch).

    Basically, to cut a long story short after 35 minutes of this, the sticks looked like this:

    [​IMG]

    As you can see, one stick is relatively intact but the other is pulverised.
    This was brought on PURELY through stick to stick contact in the drills mentioned above, I never even got to try a couple of rounds of tires with them.

    Now to address specifically the points regarding the apparent abuse:

    It may not have been rotten but the Sale fo goods act states that:

    • Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

    • Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.

    • Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety

    the goods did not match their description on the website, at this point they did not ocnform to contract. the goods were not, in my opinion of satisfactory quality, or fit for purpose as they were not durable (as shown by one breaking after 35 minutes training), the goods were also not free of minor defects, one of the sticks had some minor damage where the skin had been broken during the burning process.

    The split mentioned does indeed exist and can be seen in the photograph, however this happened during the training, not through any abuse of the stick.

    The only leveradge the stick went through was following breakage, I did indeed flex the damaged area of the stick in order to examine how badly damaged the core was, this was not the cause of the damage, but happened afterwards, this was done to see if there was any way to salvage the (rather expensive) stick, but the damage done to the stick was far too severe.

    I'd like to see the chemical analysis you did of these fibres, and a more thorough description, as I explain I didnt even have the opportunity to do any tires with these sticks. And there was no footprint, indeed nothing even resembling one.

    There are broken strands evident in the photograph, so there definitely were broken strands.
    Here is one highlighted:
    [​IMG]

    That's a strawman argument, or at best Specious reasoning.
    This last point could, if you want to labour the point further be backed up by people present during the training session in question. Anyone in doubt can contact 2 of those people via MAP.
    My instructor is a member of this forum as is at least one of the other students at my class who was present that night. I wont post their names yet, until I have got their permission, but I will happily pass them on to Lucy, should she so wish.

    Whilst I admit that Lucy did refund me my money (including the return postage), I was very disappointed with their decision to treat me with distrust when I know that all I did was train with the stick provided, and all I wanted was a good, strong, durable pair of sticks.
    It upset me greatly that they decided to refuse to deal with me ever again because, had I received satisfactory treatment from them I would have sought the possibility of setting up a trade account, in order to supply to my Club.

    So, that's my side of things, draw whatever conclusion you want. I had hoped it wouldnt come to this but it appears that it was unavoidable.
     
  10. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    It was not quite so open and shut as that. Now was it?

    Following your email regarding the said faulty sticks, I immediately replied with the following:

    But no sticks came back.

    When you did not return them after five weeks, I emailed you saying I would be closing my file on this as it seemed you had no intention of returning the said faulty product, as this was more than a reasonable amount of time for a natural product to be used and worn down.

    A week later the sticks came back.....that is 6 weeks in total at this point. I can only assume a good deal of use has been enjoyed by this time.

    Now you stated to me that you only expect this kind of damage after 2 to 3 months but earlier in this thread you admit that 4 weeks is the average life of your sticks.....and....when did you return the sticks????? 6 weeks later.

    Suspicion only arose when it took so long for the sticks to come back. And to still give you your money back, I done that out of the kindness of my heart, because I do not like to see someone go without. No other company would of done this at this late stage, that is for sure.

    I was quite happy to leave it at that but as you felt it necessary to quote my name from someone elses post and then go on about these so called very expensive sticks that only lasted 35 minutes. When you first brought the subject up in another thread, I did not say anything, even when you were clearly letting everyone know you had a misunderstanding with my company, I still said nothing. Now you find a good way to bring it up again, I am saying something in my defense, so let's continue.....

    Rattan is a natural product and under different levels of stress, will eventually break (with different people with different training methods,it is difficult to measure the lifespan of a stick). If they break straight away, yes you get a refund or replacements straight away, not 5-6 weeks later. Who knows what those poor little sticks had gone through in that space of time.

    O.k you may have witnesses, I may be wrong, or my independant advisors could be wrong, but I was not there and I did not have the product in my hand even a week after so how could I weigh it up any fairer than to give you your money back.

    You can quote trade description acts all you like, but under the trade descriptions act, when it comes to natural products, it is up to the suppliers discretion and under the trade description act I was well within my rights not to replace them or give you a refund after such a length of time considering the given purpose of a rattan stick for FMA use and the length of time for return.

    And aggressive emails following my communication with you advising that I was going to close the case (as you had not returned the sticks) was uncalled for when all I asked was for the sticks to be returned so I could inspect them in order to offer a refund or replacement. I most certainly am not going to do this without seeing the sticks in question and nor would any other company.

    This is the only reason that I refuse to deal with you in future. Even though I still believe my independant experts advice was correct. I have no reason to disbelieve them as they receive no financial gain or credit by giving me this advice. All the doubts were only put in place by your behaviour.

    I am a very reasonable person until people become unreasonable in return.

    And I am still very happy with my new stick.

    Lucy :love:
     
  11. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    It took me six weeks to receive them and only then because I said I was closing the case due to your lack of willingness to return the said faulty products.

    Now you have just convinced me that I made the right decision.

    If you are going to bring the subject up again and again, this should be no surprise to you that I was going to eventually reply in my defence.

    It is a natural product and if you look at the website, the weight is approximate.

    If you had wanted a specific size and weight, you should have specified this when you ordered and if it was not to your liking in the first place, you should have returned them straight away, specifying what was to your liking. And a replacement would have been found.

    I have many customers who specifically state what size and weight they require and I personally spend hours on occassions searching through hundreds of sticks to find the right ones for them.

    I am afraid I have not mastered mind reading yet and still can't convince all the sticks to be exactly the same weight. That is why I say it is approximate based on the average weight of that paticular natural product.

    Now if it was 240grams, would you have complained it was too heavy?

    On all orders I try to make sure they at least feel like a decent dense stick unless otherwise requested.

    You obviously pay alot of attention to detail and obviously knew what you expected from a stick, so perhaps this should have been brought up at ordering stage.

    I endeavour to do all I can to keep all my customers happy and can quite honestly say you are the first person I have refused to do business with, purely because of your attitude, when I was trying to resolve what initially seemed like a genuine customer complaint.

    But I guess I can't make everybody happy and it was not through lack of trying.

    Lucy :love:
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2006
  12. shootodog

    shootodog restless native


    those don't look like strike breaks nor wear breaks to me. rattan doesn't break that way. should it have broken, the fraying would be until the tips of the baston. those bastons still have whole tips. in other works, these baston were not broken through the normal means. these were "broken" on intention by using tools.

    i'm keeping out of this row, but i cannot let this one slide. those stick were broken using tools intentionally. that's what the evidence show.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2006
  13. aml01_ph

    aml01_ph Urrgggh...

    Back to the Sticks

    The ad is extremely misleading. What especially comes to mind is that remark about the tensile strength of 30,000 psi. A lot of people do not understand this, but tensile strength of a material just describes its tolerance to a particular type of stress (in this case tension which is the same as stretching). This means that although the stick is resistant to stretch deformation from a force of 30,000 thousand pounds, it doesn't mean it is formidable to other kinds of stress like torsion (twisting), compression and bending. Bending by the way is the stress of concern for escrima sticks especially when fatigue loads set in because of repeated strikes to other objects.
     
  14. SCP_Kensei

    SCP_Kensei www.taintedlover.com

    Lucy
    the 6 week period between my receipt of the stick sand their return is immaterial to the discussion.
    The complaint was raised onthe evening of the damage, and the photograph was sent to you that same evening. Your reply ddi not specify that replacements were conditional on receipt of the sticks, you simply stated that you would like to see them.
    given the fact that the stick were in an identical condition to that in the photo when they were sent to you (having been placed in their box and untouched for the entire time) it's pretty obvious that they received no further use during this time.

    I explained that the postage delay, I was working for promotion at my current employer so I could not afford to take time off to get to the post office (funny thing about Bank hours and the local post office hours, they are exactly the same), eventually I had to take 2 hours off to pos the sticks otherwise there was no way I would get replacements without a fight.

    This is simply untrue, The sale of goods act makes no provsision for "natural goods" differing from unnatural goods. Leather is a natural good yet is I buy a 10oz pair of boxing gloves, then they come in at 6oz and rip during my first bout then they are faulty too.
    After intial report of the fault I have by law up to six months to return the goods, during which time you must prove that the goods are not faulty, which you were unable to do without conjecture.

    I did not want a specific size and weight, I wanted sticks that were as advertised
    the sticks received were not even approximately similar in weight to those advertised, being roughly half the weight of the minimum weight bracket.

    Would you care to quote some "aggressive emails" from me? I may have sounded irritated but certainly not aggressive. I agree that it was reasonable for you to expect return of goods before supplying replacements, which is why I never chased the replacements up during the time I was waiting to send them back.
    Here is the email I sent follwoing notification that you were not going to send me replacements:
    And this as a follow up:
    You are well within your rights to refuse to deal with anyone whom you dont wish to, I cant fight that, however your reasoning for this is anything but reasonable. The only possible point of dispute you can have with me is the long return time. The effort you went to to find other reasoning behind your actions baffles me, as I went to Escrimador supplies on the recommendation of MAP members expecting that experts such as yourselves would have taken the time to ensure that I received quality goods.

    You could have taken me at my word, sent a decent pair of stick as a replacement, and we could have continued with regular transactions, possibly resulting in a situation that would enable me to purchase large numbers of sticks and other FMA gear from you on a regular basis. As such you chose not to act in good faith and sever our professional relationship.
    Your right to do so, but given the potential, kind of counter productive.

    @Shootodog: Probably best you do keep out of it, as you are working solely from a photo and were not there when I had to stop using the sticks when splinters started flying towards my training partner. Those sticks were broken doing Cabca and Sinawali drill nothing more.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2006
  15. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    It has everything to do with it, it was only after this long period that I had any doubts and it was only after I said I was closing the case that you done anything, how long would it have been if I had not of said anything?

    I think you need to quote laws and regulations to your bosses about them lunch breaks :D .

    It is a stick used for the sole purpose of FMA....6 months :rolleyes: If that was the case everybody would take a picture of an old stick and send back the ones they have just purchased after 6 months having enjoyed the benefits of the sticks purchased and returning them once they are done with them for a nice new pair. They would never have to buy a stick again. What a good idea :rolleyes: .

    They most certainly were not 80 grams and I would like to invite anybody that is going to Seni 06 this weekend to come to my stand and inspect the sticks and feel the quality and weight of the sticks for themselves and feel free to give their own independent report of their review of the sticks in question.

    I could have, but I could not imagine a supplier of a TV or even car sending out a replacement without requesting the original one back for inspection. To find out how the fault ocurred. This is not only for my benefit, but the benefit of my customers. If I do not even take a look at any faults reported, how can I look at improving the products. If there is genuinely a fault I need to know about it immediately so I can rectify any further faults ocurring, I may have a bad batch which needs to be taken out of circulation.
    And quite frankly pictorial evidence is not enough, I have not masrtered the art of recognising all my sticks on a personal one to one basis.

    Thank-you that is my point. I too was working solely from a photo. But then had to wait 6 weeks to receive the said faulty goods.

    I can actually say my experts advised me to send the sticks back and not to pay anything as there was no evident fault with the sticks other than what looked like deliberate malicious damage.

    I can safely, I felt that I dealt with this complaint in a manner that everyone can come out somewhat happy. Because I do try my best to ensure all my customers are happy. Hence the full refund.

    I am not a bad person, as you would wish people to believe, I am like anyone else, I can only work with what I am given to the best of my ability. I feel this was dealt with in a reasonable manner, given the circumstances.

    Lucy :love:
     
  16. hammond

    hammond New Member

    scp kensei

    I'm somewhat of a newbie to to stickfighting, but find it difficult to believe that a stick could end up in this condition from doing sinawali and a few other drills, was your partner an angle grinder? I train regularly but maybe i'm just a fairy but i can say my sticks don't break every month, i'm not taking any sides, but would just state facts, to take six weeks to return a product is a <<EDIT>>, if the sticks were such a burning issue i'd have got someone to return them for me. I have experience in law and would just say that taking photos is okay, but a reasonable person would return the product asap, as stated if it was faulty then the supplier could possibly have the batch returned or discontinue them and have the opportunity to inspect them. You have been given a refund, so to keep the discussion in an open forum and to inform all and sundry is bad form
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 5, 2006
  17. Scotty Dog

    Scotty Dog www.myspace.com/elhig

    Both sides have had a say and this does not look like it can or will be resolved here..........

    Thread Locked
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page