Erlequan ...

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Syd, Dec 7, 2004.

  1. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    lol... the quote "you wouldnt like to see me angry springs to mind"... please tell me you dont turn green... :D

    In this case I dont think its evil just ignorance... and I dont mean that in a mean way... tbh if someone did say things that were untrue or misguided about my teachers then I would more pity them that they didnt have the benefit that I have of being taught by them... also as in this case, if after trying to set them straight they wished to ignore my experience then thats not my problem nor is it the problem of my teachers... and perhaps I would then indulge myself in smug superiority that they are perhaps not as well taught or as open minded as myself... one of the great truths of life is that there is always something else to learn and that often hearsay is not always set in stone... I know the truth and if others are not prepared or unable to accept it then so be it... I am not the one losing out... but I do get your meaning and it can be incredibly frustrating when someone attacks without offering substance or credibility beyond "my teacher knows best"... when a teacher ceases to learn then how can they teach...??

    BTW if you are about in the second week of feb 05 then I would be honoured to have that cup of coffee (well in my case fruit juice) and chat some more... will be in your neck of the woods and hoping to get some practice in with Chen Ying Jun... (oooohhh I am so excited I cant wait to go on Holidays... woo hoo)...
     
  2. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Ooooohh yer taking me right back to the original TV series there. :D David Bannerman ... consequently I didn't like the recent film all that much, I wanted Lou Ferrigno back again. I don't turn green, that would be envy wouldn't it? :)

    Oh, I totally agree that it's not evil. I thought my quoting that old adage might be missunderstood which is why I added "it's a metaphor for my reaction". By metaphor I just mean it's a mode of explaining that in the face of ignorance I feel a strong need to set things aright.

    Under normal circumstances I am in agreeance with your attitude but this has been going on with SC for over a year and he does nothing but hide his own teachers and background, treat everyone like an enemy from his Sun Tzu mindset and promulgates groundless fluff about Erle which is without substance ... with no other purpose than to run him down to prop up his own "empty force" agenda. If he said it once and left it at that, fine. The fact is the guy seeks out the opportunity to belittle when it's not called for. Now if I remain silent in the face of his seemingly ( to some, maybe? ) intelligent tirades against Erle then it could appear to new faces as though these things were/are true and take my silence, or the silence of others as an indication of
    his being right.

    He's not and so I lay it down; I lay it down because he seeks me out. :)

    The guys been asked to attend a friendly meeting of Sydney IMA's and declines. I have offered to meet him face to face, in the spirit of being open, discussing things and getting to the bottom of our discourse and he remains silent. He has been asked numerous times to declare his training and who his teachers are in the face of attacking others and he remains hidden and silent.

    What does any of this tell you? In any case my new years resolution is to ignore the guy wholesale. :)

    I believe Noblenicky is plugged into the Ying Jun situation also, perhaps we'll all make an effort to meet at this gathering.

    As for Feb 05, you bet. You have an open invitation to come to my home in the mtns and we can do some Rainforest trekking if your into it. I can show you some sights and the coffee/herbal tea is on me. Let's stay in e-mail contact and I'll send you my home ph. ;)

    psi_fan@yahoo.com

    How long are you out for?
     
  3. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    I have had the oppurtunity to meet Lou and hes a nice guy... big as ever and in great shape... he did get a cameo in the new one which my son really likes...

    I have been speaking to Nick and it is he who is setting up a couple (hopefully) of practice sessions for me...

    I used to live in the blue mountains in Springwood... been on a couple of treks through that beautiful region... we may be staying in Springwood when we come over (fly in 11 feb and out 18 feb...) but as my father in law has just bought a new place in Woy Woy not sure as yet... would love to meet up though... email coming your way mate...
     
  4. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Sounds good mate.

    I have been meaning to meet up with Nick but the silly season is upon us and I've been stuck up here with work and other sorts. Hopefully I can tee up with Nick to visit with Ying Jun around the same time, we've been talking on it for long enough.

    I forgot you were a Springwood lad, have you walked the Valley of Waters at Wenty? In any case perhaps we might get a chance to go at some push hands and a few training drills? :D

    Look forward to hearing from you!
     
  5. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    YOu'd find me very nice, dte and not belligerent and stoic like in here. :)

    You practise a Wudang art but seem to speak like a Shaolin man. I am not interested in a physical confrontation. The only time you'd see me fighting with my hands is when my life is threatened. But you can call me chicken anytime. I won't respond to it :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2004
  6. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    I'm pretty certain thats true.

    Nor am I, who said anything about a physical confrontation? I only mentioned a face to face meeting. The Yum Cha invitation a year ago was for a meeting of minds, not a confrontation either. You'd find me extremely easy going and affable in person, as you would others I have met from this board.

    As to the Wudang vs Shaolin mentality ... I think you'll find that most if not all of the old Yang and Chen Masters, as well as Wu Quan Yu were well known for answering challenges and fighting in challenge matches. Yang Lu Chan is known to have fought a Shaolin Monk who later died of his wounds! I think you've got a twisted idea about Wudang being above fighting.

    I feel the same way.

    Who called you chicken?
     
  7. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    soggycat - no-one was talking about a physical confrontation. I have met Syd personally and can testify that he seems to be a decent bloke who wouldn't want to do that :)D).

    And if anyone ever tried to arrange a physical confrontation through this site/forum, they'd be banned straight away.

    Consider that some people actually may want to know what your IMA background is, who your teacher is and in fact if you have ever done tai chi before. This is something you have never really answered.
     
  8. Uncle Bill

    Uncle Bill Valued Member

    Some people take everything Erle says as Gospel.
    If Erle says he had to fight Shao Shan Kan before he was awarded his degree of Master, it must be true.
    If Erle says he was tipped off about Qi Disruption when he overheard Yang Sau Chung discussing it with someone, it must be true.
    Too bad Yang Sau Chung is no longer alive to verify that.

    Consider the following:

    - Erle's story about how he met Chang Yiu-chun after Chang Yiu-chun stowed away on a ship to Australia has never been independantly verified;
    - the only piece of evidence that Chang Yiu-chun ever existed is an interview supposedly from an unspecified issue of China Wushu magazine and widely distributed on the internet;
    - there is no photographic evidence that Chang Yiu-chun ever existed;
    - we are told that Chang Yiu-chun is no longer alive so Erle's story apparently can't be contradicted.

    In relation to Qi Disruption/Liang Shih-kan, I would point out the following:

    - Erle's story about he travelled to Liang Village in China in 1995 to learn the remaining Qi Disruption katas has never been independantly verified;
    - the only piece of evidence that Erle's story might be true is a talk supposedly given by Liang Shih-kan's predecessor, Dong kit-yung, at London University in Hong Kong and conveniently found on Erle's website;
    - there is no photographic evidence that either Dong Kit-yung or Liang Shih-kan ever existed;
    - we are told that Liang Shih-kan died after Erle left the village and upon his death all of his other students lost interest in continuing to practise, so again Erle's story apparently can't be contradicted.

    Can we just accept that Erle is an unreliable source of factual information and there is no factual basis for either of these stories, and leave it at that?
     
  9. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Sure you can, but I don't think it's quite fair to suggest he is an unreliable source of factual information. The issue for yourself and others might be verification ... this does not mean what Erle states is not a fact or did not happen. If you cannot prove it either way then it remains open whether Erle did or did not do something. It's neither a fact that he did or didn't, you see; and so just as possible that he did, as didn't.

    At the end of the day you either believe him or you don't, for students of Taijiquan it's actually a moot point because he has skill and what he teaches has substance. There are allot of people in the world who never met or saw Jesus Christ and yet they regularly attend a church or pray ... what are we to make of that? Does the lack of evidence of Christs reality diminish a persons faith or the power contained therein?

    You either believe it and practice, or you don't. This thread was for people interested in Erle's background, thats all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2005
  10. nzric

    nzric on lookout for bad guys

    Uncle Bill - them thar' quite strong accusations for a third post on the forum.

    What's your background? - seems like you know a lot about the topic.
     
  11. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

  12. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Yeah, these people have a big problem with Master Ho-Ho Choy - a direct disciple of Bagwazhang Master Chiang Jung-jiao, who Erle learned his Bagua from ... makes sense. :rolleyes:

    A book does not serve to teach an entire system but rather serves as an adjunct to it. Now lets have some subjective reviews of your teachers classes hmmm? ;)
     
  13. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    All 4 people who reviewed Erle's book bought it for US$41 ( AUD$70). They were not prejudice against Erle to start with, else why would they have wasted their money in the first place? They bought it in good faith and with high expectations, were disappointed and incensed enough to take the trouble to write a review in Amazon.com.

    Note also at least 1 reviewer provided titles of other "Good " books on Bagua. Wonder why he didn't have any prejudice with those other books, some whom are by white men ( John Bracy, Joseph Crandall)


    Like I said, Erle promotes himeself voraciously thru books and videos, and sees it fit to publically denigrate other masters/systems.

    Other masters are more modest including mine.
    Hence there is no reason to compare their merits.

    If you attack others, expect a response.
    If you are kind to others , expect a similar response.
     
  14. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Soggy, Soggy, Soggy ...

    There are quite a few different systems of Baguazhang out there my friend and not everybody knows all the systems or agree's with the varieties contained within those systems. Some people looking at Erle's system of Baguazhang may not be aware of that particular system, the fact that Erle emphasizes Dim Mak within his various arts seems to be confused with the efficacy of his Baguazhang. Erle teaches his own system of Martial Arts and as such has done his own research into these arts that he teaches.

    It's pretty clear that his view emphasizes Dim Mak as a core element to internal arts and this is his area of specialisation. People coming from other systems of Bagua may not share this view or the views and techniques of his teachers, that does not mean they are wrong or incorrect. There are a great many Bagua students from other systems who are fully aware of Erle's Bagua lineage and find it authentic due to their own knowledge and research.

    Find me any Master or Teacher that Erle has attacked openly on his website or in articles in the internal arts community? The only person attacking anybody around here Soggy is you!. But then, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. :D

    Shouldn't you be levitating a table or something?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2005
  15. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member

    ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2005
  16. soggycat

    soggycat Valued Member


    1.
    I agree there are many systems of BGZ.
    I am imminently familiar with Erle's lineage (Ho Ho-choy- Chiang Jung-jiao/Jiang Rong Qiao JRQ - Cheng Ting Hwa - Dong Hai Chuan )
    Hence Erle's style is not a rare one like Ermei or YinYang.
    Hence many people like myself have seen REAL Cheng Ting Hwa Bagua, and know what it should or should not look like ( variations permitted).

    For starters, the hip shake at the end of every step in the Circle walk is UNKNOWN outside Erle's system. If Erle wants to create his own Bagua style, thats fine but he should not, by association , mislead others to think it comes from (Ho Ho-choy- Chiang Jung-jiao - Cheng Ting Hwa)
    This is my major grouse , and reason why I will continue to hound him all over the web.Because he is damaging Bagua's reputation.


    2.
    With regard to your 2nd point about whom Erle has denigrated, all I can say is <sigh !>
    Just look all over MAP for the multitudes of threads, and all over Emptyflower.com and all over the web.
    :cool:[/QUOTE]
     
  17. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    So you have the monopoly on what every persons Bagua should look like? Whoaaa! This is entirely subjective; like many Masters, or advanced Teachers who have reached the upper echelons of their art, many, if not all are wont to make it their own and emphasize certain area's for specialisation. Yang Lu Chan did this as did Yang Cheng Fu and countless others whilst staying true to the classics.

    So what? He is emphasizing the shake to demonstrate the particular jing inherent in his area of specialization, Dim Mak and Fajing. Your logic seems to run with the idea that common practice is correct practice. I wouldn't practice the commonly taught forms of Tai Chi in China if you payed me! The fact that Erle is doing something rarely seen gives it more credence in my view. You do not train in Erle's system so you are hardly in the best position to interpret whats going on and the theory behind it. It's like someone walking up to some modern art and blindly calling it crap because they think art is only one kind of thing.

    I'm sure he's been waiting for that dispensation from you for while now, guess we can all rest easy at long last.

    He's the one who studied in the lineage and you know better do you? :D

    You just cooked your goose with that statement my friend! If thats not made it abundantly clear to all and sundry that you are a dedicated troll with an axe to grind then nothing else will.

    They're so easy to find ... go get em then! ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2005
  18. Mad-about-Bagua

    Mad-about-Bagua Valued Member

    Just like to clarify the above statement. Is that really correct?


    This is contrary to common knowledge in the Bagua world in Hong Kong.
    The commonly accepted fact is Ho Ho Choi was a student of Gao Yi Sheng , not Chiang Jung Jiao , (aka Jiang Rong Qiao).
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2005
  19. Syd

    Syd 1/2 Dan in Origami

    Thats the information I have from Erle and others who know him, if you need further clarification you can always shoot Erle a mail to which he usually replies to within 24hrs.
     

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