English Longsword

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    ... actually Ran I hope to be in Dal/FW for thanksgiving 2009 and the new cowboys stadium! :argue:

    I'll pack a sword... !
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2008
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Ha, The chances of dragging you out of the Cowboys stadium is gonna be pretty slim unless Ran can get Greg Ellis to help him.

    The Bear.
     
  3. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    For an autograph of Mr Ellis or indeed any starter (especially my main man T Romo) am willing to kill all work colleagues, some close friends and a couple of relatives.
    New stadium is lovely ... even if they stuck it in Arlington!
     
  4. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member


    Way Cool! You are most welcome to drop in on the ARMA DFW study group. However, we do practice on Sunday evenings which might not fit you Cowboys game schedule. Coming from outside the US I highly suggest that you not pack a sword, some of the airport people can be nutsooo. We will be happy to loan you a sword if you can visit with us.
     
  5. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    Yup, it will depend on kickoff time ... or even if its a home game. Usually the schedule had the sunday before thanksgiving at home for the 'boys but not always ... I have ended up in baltimore for the sunday game before.

    Dude its TEXAS! the fine for carrying a concealed firearm is something like $50! If I came through customs with a sword ... I would probably be asked why I didn't just carry a pistol as they were more efficient!
     
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Hamster

    Would you believe that Faraq an Iraqui that trains with us got a samurai sword "junk bought in Spain" through customs at Glasgow airport which last year suffered a terrorist attack!!!!


    regards koyo
     
  7. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    Koyo
    hope you is good

    I can believe it at glasgow. I came through there from amsterdam not that long after the attack looking rough as F***, unshaven, red eyed and slightly shifty (although thats normal) and no-one even looked twice at me or the other 5 blokes who were with me. We were certain it was rubber glove time given the state of us ... those IT training courses to holland are H*LL!
     
  8. ludde

    ludde Valued Member

    I have to agree with the bear. I feel it’s a myth that a warrior would care so much that the weapon itself got not practical. The warrior’s life was way more important than the blade.
     
  9. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Yep the best way to protect the weapon is to kill the other guy then have the weapon resharpened or repaired OR replaced.

    regards koyo
     
  10. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Edge vs flat, funny topic.
    Personally, I've not been in any life or death situations involving swordfighting, so my following theory is based purely from reading medieval fencing manuals + my experiences from sparring...

    IMHO, it seems that if you spar according to the manuals(-meaning that if you set up the sequenses as they are depictured in the manuals), you get very few edge on edge-situations. One then have to ponder what the fencing-manuals actually depicture. Personally, I believe they adress situations that have erupted more or less often during duels/sport-fencing at the time the manual is written, and offers solutions to the situations to the masters students advantage. It is further my theory that the manuals don't strive for avoiding denting the blades, I believe that it is a coincidence that the sollutions that the masters suggests in their manuals happens to make flat on flat or edge on flat-situations (which don't cause dents and nicks in the blade).

    That said, I totally agree to the statement of Koyo, I'd rather have a nick on my edge than on my ring-finger, as is the case currently after a rough encounter with a sword-edge last Sunday on Kungelv, fighting in rideculously thin gloves :eek: There are allso some techniques shown in the manuals that by some modern HEMA'ers interpret as edge on edge-situations. Guy Winsor have one from the fiore manual, where you lock down the opponents blade in an edge on edge situation, while closing in for grappeling, and one of the german masters (don't remember which) shows a situation where you rise to ochs, striking the head of the opponent before the bind, when the opponent performs a diagonal cut from "von tag", and that will IMHO cause an edge on edge-situation.
     
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I had a print of a samurai on horseback with his attendant running behind him I asked Sekiya shihan why the attendant had three swords across his shoulder. He said it was in case the sword got blunted knotched or broken.

    he also said that the samurai NEVER fought with treasure swords in mass battles the expensive sword remained at home or in a shrine and heavier more practical and disposable weapons were used.PLus the bow and spear were used far more often than the sword.



    regards koyo
     
  12. max Chouinard

    max Chouinard Valued Member

    It seems to be a constant across cultures. Nobles would bring many useful weapons and leave precious ones at home (much like we would do today for many things). I heard once of a duel between two knights where many swords were broken (five or six I think), and the fight having to be momentarily stopped for the swords to be replaced each time. Now I'm not sure that such thing would always be possible on a battlefield, and surely not to someone who wouldn't be able to pay for another sword.

    And as for the sword not being a primary weapon, I think it's a very accepted idea. You're better to take off as many as you can from far away before putting yourself in danger mano a mano, it's old as David and Goliath.

    I think you always train to attain perfection so that in a real situation you tend to act in a not so clumsy way. If you block with the edge (talking about kenjutsu here) well, no problem, you're probably still alive but just haven't drilled it enough to become second nature. Personally, I don't have to think about it anymore while training, I even do it with sticks sometimes :rolleyes:.
     
  13. RAbid Hamster

    RAbid Hamster Herr Trubelmacher

    Schielhau? edge to flat normally as you are dropping your false edge onto the shoulder in a vertical motion.

    the classic refute of the 'dont damage the edge' brigade is the Zornhau ... where you attack your opponents sword as the opening move - to make it work for the follow up moves from the bind, you have to 'cut into' your opponents sword as he oberhaus. This simply doesn't work any other way.
     
  14. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    That's a pretty common technique, and it doesn't make an edge-to-edge contact if you step offline when you do it. There is oblique edge contact, about the same you get with opposing zornhauen. The same goes for absetzen into Ochs. Step offline and you'll get his flat on your edge, and then it can slide into your crossguard safely.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  15. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Actually, this can certainly be done mostly edge to flat. It's a timing issue in many cases. Very rarely will two people strike a zorn exactly at the same time. If the two zorns are displaced in time (i.e. one guy is in the Nach), then they will intersect with one guy hitting the flat-ish of the other with his edge.

    I interpret the zorn in two ways. If you're cutting at his head, you're not so much cutting into his blade as cutting over it while hitting him in the head. You're basically cutting the guy over his flat to his head. Try it and see. It's fun, you'll like it, and the chicks will dig you. ;) If you don't hit him in single time, you should thrust after, blah blah blah.

    The other is the "zornhau-ort" where you strike slightly short (either by design or not) with your point online for the thrust as you make contact. Done perfectly, it's really edge to flat to the point where it's almost pretty and dainty. ;) Envision striking over the far side of your opponent's head (or through the face, whatever... kind of like an angled Schielhau) as his zorn comes in so that you stop in lower hanger, closing the line of course. You'll have laid him open with the counter, your edge to his flat.

    Now there are edge to edge contacts. Meyer's "sperren" for example. It's just not a "block"... it's more of a stifling before anything really gets moving. :)

    I really didn't want to get into edge vs. flat stuff, but my theory is: Try the technique as written. If there's a way to do edge-to-flat that's ergonomically feasible, that's probably the way it should go. Funnily enough, almost all counter-cuts and windings go edge to flat if you step offline. With good footwork and timing, you don't really have to worry... edge to flat happens on its own.

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  16. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yes but we still consider obqliue edge contact as edge contact. Also you can get both steping offline in a zornhau which is also why we never say never.

    The Bear.
     
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    NO! You must cut through his intention to attack. To just "cut over" leaves an opening. You must take everything away from the other swordsman. If you cut through his attack then you destroy his ability to counter and cut him as well. It also controls the centreline incase he somehow manages to survive and you can immediately move to second intention retaining an advantage.

    The Bear.
     
  18. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I agree. It's just that I don't think this is so because the masters wanted to save their edges, I think it just coninsidently happens to be the case that when you fight "properly", you usually end up with edge on flat (a consiquense of stepping offline), it seems.
     
  19. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Yes that's another case, definitions. If we follow what you say here, I'd support wholehartedly that there is a lot of edge on edge in medieval longsword.

    I've usually said in discussions that there are a lot of "edgeshoulder on edgeshoulder", there are a lot of "edge on flat", but few "edge on edge" :)

    I still don't think they avoided edge on edge just because they wanted to save their egdes, I rather think it's the other way around; proper fencing leads to few dents in the egde, and as most swordmen in medieval (and viking)-times knew how to fight with their weapons, we find few edge dents in archaeological finds :)
     
  20. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I think we're talking about the same thing. I still close the line, and I still bind him. Look here at about 10 seconds in. That's what I do: [ame]http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=lYwdE3f5fFQ[/ame]

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     

Share This Page