Empty Force

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by jalan7, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. jalan7

    jalan7 Valued Member

    Hi


    I would like to hear from all you cool people about your opinions on "Empty Force". For those unfamiliar with the term it is moving someone without touch or little touch (in PH).


    There are a couple of great masters who claim this skill. Ma Yue Ling and Huang Shen Shyan are two that come to mind. There reason these two stick out in my mind is because in watching them I KNOW they have real PH skill(empty force aside). So I feel that their true skill otherwise gives some credibility to EF as a possible reality. In Taiji it could be possible.

    If you consider the first time you saw a master use fa jing you may have thought it was a hoax. I have seen masters use a tiny body motion in their fa jing with big results ( like push back their partner 3 meters or to the floor with a 1 or 2 inch motion). Until you study and learn more it seems impossible - but we now know that is real!

    So EF may be the same idea. I don't think it is a magical forcefield. I guess it may be a combination of high level listening energy, superior position and timing and very crisp mind. Clearly the masters who demonstrate this skill connect with and influence the body/energy of their partner. But I think this could just be very advanced sticking, joining, following, etc. with the above skills at work also.

    You can check some videos on Youtube to help the discussion if you like.

    [ame="http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=LKElvchmy54&feature=related"]YouTube - Mas. Huang Sheng Shyan[/ame]
    check some of the "related videos" also.

    And

    [ame="http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnUDkCQ0WU&feature=related"]YouTube - GRANDMASTER HUANG SHENG SHYAN push hands[/ame]


    And

    [ame="http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=l_gmMqzf2I8&feature=related"]YouTube - Ma Yu Liang push hands[/ame]
    again - see related videos at the side


    Best
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
  2. Slovenly Zhang

    Slovenly Zhang Valued Member

    These videos are a load of rot. The students are purposefully over reacting in order to boost their instructors reputations.
    When I first started learning in Hongkong in the 50's, I attended a taijiquan event that featured several demonstrations of form and push hands. I was taken along by one of my seniors, who took me along to help introduce me to the world of taijiquan.
    We watched a demonstration similar to the clips you have posted above, and my senior explained that teachers would expect their students to be compliant, and over-react in public demonstrations. To not do so would be considered a challenge to the teachers skill, and could well result in you being discharged from your school, with poor recommendations made to other teachers in the area. Even my teacher insisted on over reacting in public.

    So, in my experience, "empty force" is non existant. It has been faked for years as a method of attracting new students to a school, and I have no reason to believe that it is a genuine skill that is applicable in combat.
    "Empty Force" demo's should not be used as a gauge for anyone's skill level. Instead, you need to see them training in their private settings.

    Incidently, a lot of taijiquan teachers in the west treat empty force as it is a real thing, and "practice" it in their schools as a genuine skill.
    Although the students may not be conciously overreacting, I believe that it is a kind of cult mentallity. The senior students who have been groomed for years by the teacher over react, which encourages new students to over react, because we all know that when you start something new for the first time, you want to fit in. It may not be a concious decision, but there is certainly no empty force in play.

    So, to sum up:

    Empty Force = Empty Farce.
     
  3. Raven001

    Raven001 New Member

    Total BS. The best video clip of all to prove it is watching a master get his butt handed to him by an MMA guy. I mean even if it did exist whats the point if you cant use it in a real situation
     
  4. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    Empty Force = Utter nonsense. Slovenly Zhang has it right on the money.

    Very best wishes
     
  5. jalan7

    jalan7 Valued Member

    But...

    Hi All,


    I'm playing devil's advocate here....why would a master wth real PH skill invent something he didn't need to at the risk of his reputation? I'm sure they don't live in a vaccuum, realizing that the entire tj and ma community will have this reaction?

    check the first video link, the one in chinese, and click the slider up to about 60% to see master Huang practicing regular PH. He has some skills! He is reputed to be one of Cheng Man Ching's most talented disciples. So why risk his reputation?

    Any comments? Or any hypotheticals how EF could be explained in practical terms. For example, did you ever almost bump into something and stop short or move back suddenly to avoid it? Your body reacted without contact.
    Could EF be something like that?

    I realize that the students over react with the bouncing back and stomping of the foot - it is stylized and doesn't help with taking EF seriously. But just consider the possibility of EF and try to explain it in Taiji terms. That is my challenge.


    Very best
     
  6. Genkuro

    Genkuro Valued Member

    TMA is full of nutters basically, its what happens after spending all you're life learning to kill people. They probabally believe they can do it.

    Just because they are nutters doesn't mean they can do the real deal like PH.

    I will never believe this unless I experience this first hand, and I assure you if anyone I met claimed to be able to do this I would demand they demonstrate it on me. If they can do it and it turns out it breaks my rib cage, thats fine. But I know how I'd hedge my bets.

    I sometimes worry these old masters have done hypnotherapy courses and have effectivley hypnotised their students. I bet it happens.
     
  7. A Walmsley

    A Walmsley Valued Member

     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    O Sensei Ueshiba founder of aikido was supposed to be able to "throw an attacker without contact" Kishomaru Ueshiba went as far as to publish articles in aiki journal to refute this and other exotic claims such as using kiai to" blast the light bulbs out of cameras".

    There extraordinary men in martial arts but they are extra ORDINARY men the claims of mystical powers are not true.


    regards koyo
     
  9. Doublejab

    Doublejab formally Snoop

    Yeah its the same as KOing somone without touching them ala Dillman. Its not possible and is a confidence trick.
     
  10. Slovenly Zhang

    Slovenly Zhang Valued Member

    Like I said, it was a show put on to attract new students. It was shown alongside form demonstrations, and very basic applications (the results of which were often also over exagerated).

    It can't, because it is not real.

    No, that is just having good reflexes and awareness of surroundings.

    I considered the possibility of empty force being real when I first started learning, which is why my senior took me along to the taiji event that I mentioned earlier. He explained to me that it was a show put on to attract students.
    Why do masters risk their reputations like this? Money money money...
     
  11. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    I wouldn't class what these guys do as empty force. though on occasions is skirts awfully close. there is contact. sometimes very light. perhaps very very occasionally there is none.

    It's a combination of factors i believe. Slovenly has covered much of it. But indeed the students are a big part of it, and their reactions are primed - which has a lot to do with a reliance on overly compliant training. Psychology also plays a big part. NLP, that sort of thing.

    If you watch some systema demos, or even a demo by Derren Brown for instance you will see empty force at work.. Manipulation and control - the thing about these clips - I agree with you Jalan that these two have great skills. Ma was said to be extremely good!

    The systema people do use the explanation you gave. Ma himself when asked about reactions said that it was mostly in the other guys mind. A lot of the time he would demonstrate in public, and as far as i can tell/ know it wasn't just students that pushed with him.

    but then you can't know that 100% I guess....

    What they do is mix their push hand skills into the "mind control" pot and do some nifty looking stuff.. But in genuine martial arts fighting terms it's meaningless. It just makes for remarkable looking skill demos when really if a partner is so "under the influence" it hardly matters how good you really are under pressure in push hands or otherwise. And seeing as we've not seen direct footage of them really being tested by peers and not students.. Like I said it's meaningless showmanship, but i do find it interesting and entertaining to watch. and you catch some glimpses of skills that is worthwhile to see.. In my opinion.

    can't really imagine Derren trying this against a mugger can we ?

    [ame="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RgQIGKDR9Mk"]YouTube - Derren Brown - Mind Controlling Punch[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
  12. A Walmsley

    A Walmsley Valued Member

  13. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on

  14. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Empty force certainly IS real, but as ever, what matters is to realise that we appoint expectations of things - and by our very nature, we like to appoint over blown, exaggerated expectations of things... and then we're never happy with any explanation that doesn't live up to our expectations.

    And inferring the meaning of odd Chinese translations doesn't help the process either - it only fuels it.

    Yes, empty force exists, as long as you're prepared to dis-appoint your expectations as to what it really is. Western boxers, MMA fighters, use empty force all the time - it's called faking, or feigning - pretending to hit, making your opponent react without ever touching him. It can be a very skillful art - sometimes requiring you to slow down or make more obvious your technique so that your opponent can see it.

    And there you have - empty force.
     
  15. Slovenly Zhang

    Slovenly Zhang Valued Member


    Typically, it's just called faking, or feigning, as you said.
    "Empty force" was (and still is) a marketing ploy, to attract students.
     
  16. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Yeah, but what you're talking about is the 'product' of appointing expectations. Originally, empty force, if it had any basis in fact, was obviously meant to mean simply feigning...

    All of Chinese martial arts is like this - no true idea exists without its far more popular evil twin sitting in its arm chair, drinking its tea, while the good twin freezes its balls off outside.
     
  17. Slovenly Zhang

    Slovenly Zhang Valued Member

    Perhaps.
    I'll leave it here, I think. :)
     
  18. A Walmsley

    A Walmsley Valued Member

    Yes, so will I.

    Anthony Walmsley.
     
  19. Fire-quan

    Fire-quan Banned Banned

    Well, you could go on, and consider the information, or that there are other interpretations - or rather, that there is more to the story than simply a fraudulant demonstration you saw in the 1940's.

    We all know that not only empty force, but any number of fradulant tricks and claims have evolved in CMA to attract students. But maybe, just maybe, many of the silly things we have now, evolved from authentic ideas and principles, misunderstood over the years, transforming in to tricks and cons for financial gain. And maybe, just maybe, CMA could be strengthened by understanding what heppened, how it happend - via appointment of exaggerated expectations, financial greed, etc.; because it means we can work out the ideas and principles that those misconceptions arose from.
     
  20. jalan7

    jalan7 Valued Member

    EF explained

    Hi Folks,


    First, I thank you all for playing. This is my first thread started on MAP and I figured it would be a good controversial one to get to know other members.

    I am glad that the term "feigning" came up because it starts to explain EF in a tangible way. This was my purpose for the post. I have seen this method used with some limited success. It works during free pushing simply because the other person doesn't want to get hit - they move. So a person who had a great skill level at manipulating that part of human nature during PH could demonstrate EF or feigning.

    Yes, there are a lot of shams in the MA which take away from the original meaning of some to the skills they emulate. It is interesting to remove the smoke and mirrors to see what is behind them.

    So I ask you again, now based on the term feigning, what real PH skills are involved.

    There is another issue. If you don't believe that taiji skills can be used without contact then how do you practice free fighting? In taiji free fighting all of the skills used in PH, stick, join, adhere, follow, etc. are used even when there is a distance between partners. So if one uses stick for example but there is no contact - does that stick exist or is it a sham?
    My experience is that these skills can be used at a distance. So why not try to figure out why and how they work this way.
    In PH we use all of the senses, not just touch. We use sight and sound, even some believe we use smell. So just because touch is removed it shouldn't pose a great problem for advanced practitioners. Such people practice fighting and it often looks choreographed because their join and follow skills are excellent, they can match their partners even if touch isn't present. There is no magic, just great skill.
    Have any of you got some experience with this type of feeling? Care to share?


    Best
     

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