Following on from a now closed thread, with my buddy badger Ladder. Here is a video of the LEGEND Steve Morris, about elbows. He was a legendary fighter and martial artist.. notice how he doesnt use the 'tip' of the elbow. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BESUwL6r9k&feature=share"]Steve Morris elbow on bag - YouTube[/ame] Now, not saying your thoughts were wrong.. just that (as in the thread where I didnt agree and still don't agree now).. nor it seems, does Sensei Morris. Is it wrong (in your opinion) or just different? Thoughts? stuart
Your post confuses me...lol Weapon should always match the target. Taking the same elbow strikes in the video above, to expose the tip of the elbow, at the point of impact the palm side of the hand is facing away (e.g. facing towards theopponent) and the pivot point for the elbow strike would be closer to the hand. This creates a slicing or arcing elbow strike. The purpose is to cut open the skin of the face and make them bleed. A alternative target is the back of the neck along the brain stem for a light pressure point strike. Yes there are other variations. The downside of this is the hard tip of the elbow is for soft targets and does almost nothing if it hits bone on bone (although there is a spot right on the top of the head between the bone places of the skull that is considered a soft target, most of the head is hard target). Another downside is that it is an arcing strike that can easily be jammed if you are too close. You got two other striking surfaces: the side or edge of the forearm near the elbow and the back of the forearm near the elbow. It depends on the rotation of the hand. Palm facing the ground is edge, palm facing you is back of forearm. Which one you use depends on the target. If I am shoulder striking, I will goe palm facing me to protect the elbow and allow for an incidental elblow strike low (e.g. to the kidneys). If I am hook punching to the head or downward to the body, then palm facing ground allows for the elbow strike. Both of these are closer in elbow strikes compared to the first one that strikes with the tip of the elbow. They are also more powerful because the pivot point is closer to the middle of the forearm making them more linear putting the body mass behind it. I respect all elbows. Until you get cut upen and bleed all over the place, you might not respect the tip of the elbow slash across the face. At the same time, if you are used to slashing elbows, you might not respect the close in power elbows that hit with the forearm until you are knocked silly by one. IMHO
Its no big thing. Me and BL were, as part of an other discussion chatting about Elbows in TKD. His point was that if you are using the 'end forearm' part of the elbow, then you are doing it wrong, as all elbows should cut!* My point was, thats how they are done in TKD and it doesnt make it wrong, just different. Steve Morris is a legendary fighter, often attributed as one of the first MMA'ers... so I just posted the clip as he used the same part of the elbow we do (mainly) in TKD. The rest of the video is up for discussion if ya want Stuart * Disclaimer: BL may not have said that word for word, but thats how it came across, apologies if not quoted exactly as said, or if it came across to me different from how he intended
0:45 for Pete C on elbows [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqfYwhsQdQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqfYwhsQdQ[/ame]
Thats interesting as I have trained with Steve Morris. If you watch the clip again you will see he is talking about using the elbow like that to train so you add the rest on. It is about getting close range power. He does hooks and body shots and straights at the elbow to train ..then you add the rest of the limb. Watch again and listen. Maybe watch the whole DVD to get perspective. If you watch his pad work DVD where they work on elbows from the open position he says what I said. And he has said it in sessions.I can get you the exact time on DVD if you want. Where do you think I learnt it from? Him and my Thai boxing instructor. And watching Top Thai fighters. My point in that thread was that TKD does not go into Elbows to the depth of Muay Thai and that was one aspect was an example. Of course you could do the elbow the TKD way , I even said that. Maybe me saying its not a proper elbow has got your back up, I dont know. I meant that in the sense of fighting another top fighter. An elbows an elbow. The TKD way for a front elbow is more the top forearm end rather than the elbow tip. You know it, I know it.
I've been taught, generally, to use the elbow tip, and to throw it very like a punch, all from TKD Instructors. I'm not sure which way the disagreement goes as I didn't follow the original thread, but I can confirm that it's how I am taught. Mitch
I think one of the areas of confusion is that people only learn one way to do each type of elbow strike. That way is generally good for the target. In other words, you aren't just given a way to do an elbow strike but you are also provided instruction on what the good targets are to hit with that elbow technique. What many are not taught is that you can change the pivot points for elbow techniques to make them either more circular (cutting) or more linear (penetrating). And to add to it, you can turn a more linear elbow into a cutting elbow by adding rotation and different angles of attack during the follow through. People are left to learn this on their own through observation and experimentation. Take a look at the elbows demonstrated in this video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBVSp_fTiyc"]Kajukenbo Wun Hop Kuen Do. Al Dacascos - YouTube[/ame] You will see that sometimes the striking surface is the tip of the elbow, sometimes more the forearm, and sometimes it hits with more forearm and then follow through hits with the elbow tip. Even look at videos of elbows in Muay Thai and they don't always hit with the tip of the elbow. It depends on factors like what I mentioned above. For me, I rarely hit first with the tip of the elbow on an elbow strike unless the target is "given to me". If the target is right there and open, sure, tip is good. However, if I think there is a good chance that I might miss or get jammed, I use the more linear elbow strikes hitting with the forearm because it is a larger striking surface (less chance of all or nothing hit or miss), and on my follow through I'll cut across and rip with the tip of the elbow. IMHO.
Thought you`d like it I dont have the DVD.. someone just posted it on Facebook and I found it interesting as it pertained to that discussion. Irrespective of the concepts, I found it interesting as both the Steve Morris (and the Pete C) videos hit with the same part of the elbow I do or TKD does! So I think there may be some cross wires.. because AFAIA the tip of the elbow is part of the Ulna, so when you say forearm part, that what I think of .. the front (or more correctly side) of the tip (part of the forearm)... but the way you described things seem to allure to the 'very' point of the elbow ie. if you brought you fist in to your chest, the part that points 90 degrees away!! We would use the 'very point' for something like a downward elbow to a (bent over) opponents back or a rear elbow strike. And the front tip part for most other strikes, such as front elbow or turning elbow strikes. So TKD actually uses both parts. We have forearm strikes in TKD as well as seperate entities and these are not considered 'elbows'! How would I know.. you never said! Though you allured to MT* You mean the same way Pete C shows them in his video.. sure, thats fine with me. Not at all... saying one wasnt correct and one was (the one you favoured) maybe irked me a little thats all.. as it came across as pompous and is incorrect AFAIC. Not according to the manuals of Gen choi.. see attachment!
Was it the 'front' part of the tip, as in the picture I just posted or the 'very' tip ie. the most pointy bit? I think there is/was a bit of confusion there, as obviously, to make a 'tip' you need a triangle shape (which the ulna and humerous provide), yet in TKD we are (or at least I was) taught to hit with the side of that tip at the very end of the forearm.
Yes.. that seems similar to what I would do.. a hard penetrating elbow strike in a first instant (to a front opponent), with what you guys are calling 'cutting' as a follow through. From the term cutting (which we dont use), I took it as slicing along the head (if thats the target) with the very end of the elbow point.. ie. cutting the opponets face!! Sounds like I read that wrong and its simply a term for a slicing type of action with the elbow aka a more circular motion.. which TKD does have too.
For a start SM is miles away ahead from Pete C in many respect and TKD so the comparison, just on that clip is not realy in perspective amd doesnt do SM justice. Also that clip of SM is showing away to train close in power. Thats the point of that, not to show how to do elbows.Now,Of course you could do them like that. I never said you couldnt. Look, in that thread my point was that TKD does not go in depth like other martial arts in certain areas and it would be a good idea and of benifit to take those ideas and training methods on. I am not getting pulled into a thread where you claim I have said you can not elbow like this or that when I have not said that at all. If you or anyone can not handle that some styles go deeper into certain things and have better training ideas or drills or ways to do things, that is yor problem. I am on my route and believe some things are done better so I take them and seek to learn them. (Just like you for gun defence) But I never ever said a person could not do them like that. And if the guy just stands there and lets you do it, you will get away with that Pete C way, but if he can fight and is up for it, I dont think its that easy. In your book you show the elbow applications in Yul Gok not using the tip.Theres a picture. You hardly mention any details on the elbows.Or on that elbow being a cutting elbows.That is how front elbows are done in Tkd patterns and in the trad way and when you take them out of the patterns thats how they are taught to be done on the main. Of course other elbows are done different ways. If you have decided to look deeper and go into it more then that is what I am advocation so dont get what your beef is. Did I say that was wrong or ineffective? No. I said that there is more to it and other ways that Muay Thai goes into that TKD does not. I know you will have an answer to all that and some way to not be wrong or that I am wrong or something and I am just not interested. My main point was that TKD would benifit from incorporating other ideas and up to date ideas and training methods and drils, and that thread is over. I will discuss TKD elbows and stuff but not from a perspective where I its me vs you or where I am saying TKD elbows are crap or wrong or you just can not do elbows this or that way. That has not been my point at all at any time.
As a TKDist I would have no problem saying MT is more extensive in their knees and elbows with regards to training.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhwHe4W6K2Q"]5th Sakmongkol vs Jongsanan fight - 2nd round - YouTube[/ame] This fight shows alot of elbows and hand fighting and clinching with two top fighters. If they did elbows how Pete C does them and how on the main TKD does them, powering them in all the time, they would put themselves out of position if they missed or comit too much and be out of position for the next thing they need to do.Thats too dangerouse. Which is why they do them like they do,more with speed of the limb and just slicing or skimming and in controll it it doesnt come off. Of course they could elbow any other way and they do at times dig them in more ,if they saw fit to so its not about saying you cant do this or that full stop. The point is its good to know as much as possible and variations. TKD does not cover it all. Someone may say this is a ring fight or sport but if people can not see how the skills shown here transfer to SD or any kind of fighting back, then I dont know what to say. Theres no point.
You know this already Hannibal, so just my observations/experiences for the general audience: Pete C is also emphasizing use of pivot points. With pivot point near the center of the forearm, the elbow strike is more linear and is much closer range. It has the most power, IME, but you have to really get close to use it... e.g. such things such as distance and limbs in the way will cause it to lose effectiveness the same as a knee strike loses effectiveness if arms are in the way. The pivot point near the hand gives more slice and make it easier to hit with the tip of the elbow. This type of elbow is used in Muay Thai quite effectively because it can hit further away and work around a guard, IME. Disadvantage is it can be jammed if too close. You see novices try to use this kind of elbow in ground fighting, etc. And it can still cut but because of how close they get, the elbow strike ends up being mostly just power from the arm (rather than full body power).
Say what! So its okay for him to do them "the wrong way"as hes not teaching elbows really.. err, okay! See now you have the point.. and my only point here is that in the other thread you felt the MT way was the right way and the other you described was wrong*.. me.. I was happy to simply say, not wrong, just different..because I didnt and still dont agree that the ones in TKD are wrong! Nice call about the Yul-Gok chapter though.. but the pictures arnt of me.. that aside, that elbow is more of a smashing type, use to break the jaw bone with the 'wishbone' effect.. so the there is no need to 'cut in'.. as it wants a power smash type! Sure. And I never disagreed with this. I only disagreed with you saying that TKD dont train them in any depth.. cos I know thats not the case at all clubs. Hmmm.. you may wanna reread some of the old thread then! because your perspective on TKD elbows was influenced by your training in TKD.. Anyway, none of that was really my point in posting this anyway.. it was simply to say.. forearm or point.. front or cutting.. both are effective and recognised by top martial artists! Howver, at least I know what the term 'cutting' means.. which was actually different from what i thought it was in the other thread to be fair As for the video you posted.. its very different from self defence perspective.. I`m not saying such skills cant transfer over, as of course they can, especially if its a 'square go' type of fight.. but in SD you would be grabbing onto the oppoenent and pulling them into the stike (Like the YUl-Gok application), and a straight smash from the elbow would eb more effective than the 'cutting' variety in that instance IMO. Plus of course, like (I think) Rebel-Wado said earlier, the attacking tool may change in an instant due to positioning anyway, and go from one type to another! Enjoyed the video though - thanks for posting it. Stuart
No, me neither (and I said as much elseware). I would have an issue with saying TKD doesnt train them though.. of that the 'TKD Variety' arnt effective! Stuart
