try using the crazy monkey guard. have been able to use suklay against some jabs. i was using a modified panununtukan/ crazy monkey/ shred-ready guard. won't work all the time but at least the chances are good. btw, "swimming" against punches isn't a good idea. in dumog, there is a form of swarming that you can employ. that takes lots of practice and a few hard hits.
Yeah, I've been experimenting w/ the "crazy monkey guard", too. I like it. What the heck is "shred-ready" guard?
Dude, I did search on google and youtube before I asked what it was--nothing comes up. You have a link or anything? Or a description, maybe I've seen it... Ta.
I am not sure I see the problem since he is still hiting your forearm and not you face. Vince PFS - JKD Family
gunting Hands held high. Fingers in your own hair and keep it tight. Do not let go of the scalp. As soon as that jab comes in just quickly run your fingers through your hair and meet the jab. Best way of training this is that your sparring partner wears boxing gloves to protect his knuckles from bashing against the tip of your bent elbow. Do it slow at first and then quicken the pace and use broken rhythm, move around. He gets distance training and you get defence training. When you get good at it, make sure hes actually going for your face, otherwise he'll have a tendency to lose the distance and he'll just be punching your defending elbows - you then get a false sense of security. Always measure up first.
My thoughts exactly. Though I do agree that carrying the elbow destruction off against a jab seems pretty unlikely to me too. But if you look at the crazy monkey defense, having punches deflected off of your forearms is a perfectly viable way to defend your head. If you happen to catch the guy's knuckles with the point of your elbow, that's icing on the cake. But the first priority still needs to be not getting punched in the face. I think Sliver raises a good point. It's not a high percentage move. And depending on the degree to which you like these things pressure tested before you adopt them, it may be a zero percentage move. Personally, I don't know anyone who's ever successfully implemented it in a real fight or MMA comp. I've used it in drills (obviously) and sparring. But that's not conclusive. That said, I'm fond of this technique. At least in theory. So I'm all for continuing to experiment with it. And not only with the elbow in the crazy monkey position either. I've played with it in the more downward muay thai position as well. (Yeah, I know muay thai uses elbows every which way, but I'm not sure how else to describe this downward diagonal elbow. Point of the elbow up and out. Hand down and back.) I suggest that because one of the criticisms of the elbow position is that it exposes the midsection. And a common feint for someone wanting to drop down and shoot, for instance, is a jab to the head. If you respond with the downward elbow instead of the upward, at least your hand is in a position to transition into an underhook at that point, so you're not caught completely flat footed. That aside for a minute, though, I want to get back to the "versus jab" thing. I can't think of a move that's less suited than a jab. A jab is ideally thrown from long range in a quick flicking motion. At least, that's one sort of jab. You'd probably stand a better chance against a stiffer jab intended to do actual damage. So in terms of using your elbow, you need to guide the opponent's jab hand (or simply get your elbow in front of it), get your elbow into position both vertically and horizontally (as the first isn't a very wide target), AND get the depth right (as the opponent is flicking it out at long range and may well have never intended to deliver the payload in the first place. That's a lot of factors working against it. Maybe you could try being a little more proactive about it. Throw the jab yourself, elicit a response, and then wade in with your elbow in the right position. You're trying to respond to all those factors. But if you initiated the sequence yourself, maybe you could cut out some of the variables. Experiment with it more outside of the confines of that drill. And then make a determination. Sliver may be right. The rate of return may be too low to be worth it. But it sounds to me like the limits of the drill you're using aren't necessarily giving you the opportunity to make that determination. Stuart
I think the confusion is right here. You've seen the techniques you describe WORK at a high level. I don't know how many people can say that of the elbow destruction. That's one of the "advantages" of judo and other competitive martial arts. You don't have that gap between what you're training and what you're actually performing. They're usually one and the same. Not necessarily so with less competition-oriented movements. And I'm not using that as a "our style is too deadly" argument. I actually think this is a real problem for styles like this. We can only ever approximate the move. And the more dangerous the move, the bigger the abstraction when we train it. So we get further and further away from actually knowing. When you say "train harder", it's based on the fact that you've seen other people do what someone is claiming can't be done. So logically, their argument has to fold. But for some things, you have to accept the possibility that it really could simply be a dud technique. Particularly if you can't locate examples of it being done successfully. Please don't take that as a discouragement against posting here though. I actually think that many of the competitive training methods and mindsets are beneficial to styles like ours. We need to have compelling ways of abstracting moves like this. We need to test them to whatever degree possible. And I've found people with boxing, judo, and jiujutsu backgrounds enormously helpful in teaching me how to do that. Stuart
This is a good point as if it is hitting your forearm then you are in effect not getting hit in a vital area. This technique is very hard to pull off against a jab. Not impossible but very hard. More likely you are going to just use it as a shield against a jab where it connects with some part of your forearm. (if you are fortunate) I personally use it against a cross and I am trying to hit with the part of my forearm closest to my elbow. I also use the off hand to guide it in. This I have pulled off against live opponents while sparring (ouch) and even if I missed I was in a good position to still counter the opponent.
We have the same technique in silat, but we do not use it from a high MT guard as Vunak does and I suspect most FMA do not either. We guide the incomming punch with the other hand too. If you are using this technique with outstretched arms you have a greater distance to cover when bringing your arm to cover your face. Hence slower. It is also much more obvious to spot as the arm has to come all the way back and across to provide the cover. Try it from a closer boxing type guard-hand in front of the face. Now, just flip the elbow up and your hand down and slightly across. Much faster eh? I'm not saying the technique from a MT gaurd will not work, but you will have to be faster to pull it off. It wouldn't be my ideal choice against a fast jab but it can work, and in a fist vs elbow situation my money is on the elbow
In Muay Thai the forearm/elbow are protects/covers the intended target area,eg the nose,if the fists hits the elbow great if it doesnt great to,the target area is protected,so to sum it up,we dont use the technique as a intended destruction only as a area protection and let the weapon come to us(hope that makes sense)
Exactly Maybe I should have said, you have to be faster to use it as a limb destruction, or rather a fist destruction. Another difference is, we tend to brace the hand on the elbowing limb against the body. I know some FMA styles do likewise. Sometimes putting the hand on the shoulder, or in my own style bending the hand down and bracing the back of the wrist against the chest. Looks a bit wierd but it's strong & you're in a ready position to flip the hand out to catch a limb.
Same or similar in Muay Thai Gajah,the hand sits on the head or the ear or the body(against hooks to ribs)
Great advice as well! I see there are major differences between these different types of positions and how effective this technique can be.
Well, I like these details on such a specific, somewhat obscure technique. Thanks, all. Another problem I've been having is I'm thrusting my elbows out, and am kind of like a sitting porcupine, just letting people throw shot after shot at me while I aim my elbows at them. In Vunak's system, you do that until you cause pain on their fist, distracting them enough so you can enter with a straight blast into the clinch range. But if you don't really cause pain, you're just... like I said, a dud porcupine, waiting, waiting... and they will clip you here and there, matter of time. Is it possible to deflect/ block/ destroy the incoming fist, and immediatly counter or clinch? I'll of course have to practice this and find out, but any advice/ horror stories on not just sitting there flicking elbows out?
Ah, I see, prison style (?!) Skull and Crossbones. That looks good and active, will give it a try, mix it with Crazy Monkey Guard (Jeesh, these names!). Thanks!
