Effective Technique

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Keikai-Tsutsumi, Nov 28, 2006.

  1. Keikai-Tsutsumi

    Keikai-Tsutsumi New Member

    Welcome JW. We have had a good time with this thread and look forward to more of the same.

    Just one question. What do you mean by a balistic response? I presume it to be striking of some form.
     
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Yes, ballistic response (also known as percussive response) essentially means striking. The rationale behind this is the distinction between whether you want to control someone or simply knock them down (or get them to stop fighting through pain). There are both advantages and disadvantages to a predominantly ballistic response:
    Disadvantage:
    1. It can look more violent to onlookers (though this can be justifed if you come to a fight 3 (law courts) situation).

    Advantage:
    1.When you end a fight through a ballistic response you can walk away. When you end a fight through grappling - unless you have rendered the other person unconciousness - you have to release the pain control in order to leave - this creates more personal hazards.
    2. I have never seen anyone get a lock/control (excepting a few ground submissions which I wouldn't touch with a barge pole if I'm looking at practical technique) onto anyone in a real situation (think police arrests - 2+ officers per person) without having to hit them first. I'd also include throws/takedowns on the street/in real life into this category - unless you are fantastic at them (or your assailant is really slow and dumb) you have to create an opening through a strike.
     
  3. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Cross training

    Training with karateka friends I learned if I move too soon they followed me , if I moved too late serves me right!!!
    What I had to learn was to be "bold" during ai uchi (that moment when if we both strike we both get hit) It ment minmal movement. It also underlined what I always believed that a strike must be made to unbalance the attacker.
    Another majpr principle is that of enten jizai attack and defence in the same instant.
    I learned this from training with G Kincaid 6th dan kendo. It is impossible to strike him "from a platform" meaning if I am close enough to strike he will already have struck me (he is that fast)
    Therefor all strikes must be made as you enter. Or if you like "on the move".
    G Kincaid and I once had a "fight" for the students who were watching he had a bokken I (no fool) had a jo (that extra couple of feet saved me.)

    It was a great experience for me the absolute immediacy of the strikes from zero to explosion in an instant really had me "on my bike"

    So the major lessons I learned were Act boldy with fighting spirit.
    Minimal movement.
    Attack and defend in the same instant and strike on the move.I trully appreciate the help these friends have been in helping me develop in aikido.

    regards koyo

    Me on my bike with shihan Kincaid
     

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  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    How I remember that from the opposite point of view. :D You're not allowed to do that! Or - koay, you want me to kick you - are you sure? :Angel:

    Definitely agree with those summing up points.
     
  5. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    The cross training was not one sided. THe karateka showed a great interest in irrimi and in hito emi (even sharper) entry.Also the tendancy to "block" through to a kuzushi and to strike through to a kuzushi was of interest.Also when I landed a kick in the early days the surprise on the opponet's face!!!
    As you say "you are not allowed to do that"
    Being an aikidoka I am not allowed to strike or punch or kick or attack first or do anything...what is the word?...yes, unpleseant.

    AYE RIGHT :Angel:

    regards koyo

    hito emi against yoko geri (no attempt block)and not a bad kick for an aikidoka.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2006
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    HI jw
    I chose to post this here (rather than stick my nose into another karate thread) My main teacher was Chiba shihan who was a close friend of Enoida shihan.THey had a long discussion on kamae.
    This is what Chiba shihan told me that they agreed on.
    In budo eventually there should be no dachi (stances) The arts must be executed from kamae (posture) and the budoka's "fighting" posture is little different from his natural everyday posture,
    But we must understand that kamae means attitude rather than simply physical posture which varies from person to person.
    In martial arts there are two kamae. Katachi kamae body posture/attitude and kokoro kamae attitude of mind. These must become symbiotic.

    That has become my take on it.

    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2006
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Perhaps you should post this on the Manji Gamae thread. :D

     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I feel that many place too much importance on technique rather than on their instinctive reaction to pressure.Only experience over which you have little or no control shall allow you to eveluate your standard of understanding.
    The ability to remain calm AND allert. To "let go" of what training in a dojo among friends has taught you.

    Of course you must know about balance ,timing,distancing and decisiveness. These you should have "perfected" through training.But it is the ability to act instinctively without pause that is difficult in moments of stress.

    A karateka shall punch or kick while an aikidoka shall pin or throw is ,in my opinion ,a mistaken assumption.A natural,instinctive,decisive and UNLIMITED response should be used and this is NOT found in adhereing to technique. It is found in the confidence and experience of the martial artist.

    An iron self control with the ability to go from zero to action in an instant.So stances and "favourite" techniques do not belong here.

    I was told ,and shown, many times that martial arts is the RETENTION of physical and spiritual (fighting spirit) energy until the instant that it is needed.Therefor the martial artist should at the very least appear to be completely relaxed (no stances) until that instant when he explodes into action.

    just some thoughts

    regards koyo
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Kamae meaning posture is, as Koyo posted previously, posture of the entire body and the mind (e.g. attitude). In this generic definition of posture, it is important to maintain kamae at ALL TIMES. When kamae is lost, that usually means the person is off balance, in which case they must regain balance first because while they are off balanced they are more vulnerable (so part of effective kamae is in effectively regaining kamae).

    It appears that Kamae can also be a term used as the name of a specific posture such as a basic stance for sparring or self defense. In this second definition, Kamae seems to me to relate to starting basics. A specific posture may be a starting point from where to move from. I think this is more of the term tachi (e.g. stance below the waist) and guard or fence (the Japanese term for this I do not remember).

    I feel the second use of the term kamae is misleading. Kamae should not be used to reference a guard position.

    Some martial arts use the concept of kamae correctly, IMO. Take BJJ for instance, they do have specific guards. For instance closed guard, half guard, butterfly guard, open guard, etc. In BJJ a guard is both a defensive and an offensive position from which to transition from. The term posture, however, is not used to describe a guard position but is to describe the overall body posture and mental posture (e.g. attitude). One of the first principles in BJJ is to break the opponent's posture before applying technique.

    One sign of good technique in relation to kamae is that the instance of breaking the opponent's posture comes from seated instinct (intuitively) AND from that point the application is always two steps ahead of the opponent's movements. I use two steps in my description to mean that application immediately takes advantage of the broken posture (one step ahead) and maintains that the opponent's posture remains broken (two steps ahead). There shall be no opportunity for the opponent to escape or counter other than what is given to them purposely.

    Actually I would go so far to say that some good technique is no more than the breaking of the opponent's posture continously until they have no place to go but subjugation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2006
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Rebl

    You have just described a major principle assert control in general and over the centreline in particular.
    When asked to attack Chiba shihan I would find that there simply was no "opening" he had such a mastery of timing and distance but on top of that a "preseance" (kamae) that caused you to pause.

    However finding the spirit to attack in such a situation , and you HAD to attack powerfully and accurately, built up your "damashi" (never give in).Kamae??

    SEkiya shihan Chiba shihan's father in law displayed this in a different manner. He was an absolute gentleman and his "preseance" invited you to attack and you felt sure that you could succeed only to be easily controlled.Different sides of the same coin!!!

    JT

    One of the major principles I learned from both of these masters (and others) was that ai uchi the space and time between antagonists wherein if we both struck simultaneously we both receive blows was the instant when we must change the maai.

    Maai is mutual distance wherein we can both act or react, therefor it is NOT an effective fighting distance. We must act in the ma which is not measurable being the space between you and the attacker which must constantly change. The art is to be too close or just out of reach. Effectively "closing down" the attacker or causing him to be off balance. Often we shall see an exchange of blows and a return to maai wherein BOTH have the option of seizing the initiative. This is wrong once we have engaged then timing and distance must be denied the attacker and we must assert control in such a manner that we never return to the possibility of ai uchi.

    Again this post has been in respect to an ongoing discussion you are having elsewhere but I feel it is relevant to effective technique.


    regards koyo

    Edit

    On re-reading this post I feel that it is rather aggresive , this is because I tend not to post "opinions" rather I post beliefs because I have tested them over a long period of training and have found them to be true FOR ME.Until they become beliefs they are only opinions and as they say everyone has one!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2006
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Definitely, there are unbalancing and striking techniques in both arts. The difference is the emphasis the teachers place on them and the order they appear in the syllabus. Of course for what you say to happen dstudents in both should be taught and free to experiment in both elements.



    Absolutely. These days I tend to close in and smother the other person's ability to counter while having my own body in a prime position fo rmy techniques. At the same time though I have to be prepared to withdraw and choose a new angle. A big part of maai is that the distance should be where you want it to be, not the other person.

    It's a shame you haven't posted the Enoeda and Chiba bit on the other thread - or is that one getting too childish for you? :D

    I'll throw out a new (and potentially controversial) thought on this thread. No matter how good you are, it is the other guy who controls the fight - not you - unless you are the one who has made the ambush and started the fight.
     
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Right with you there. What I learned during severe training under Chiba shihan was get knocked down 8 times get up 9. A good thump is a good lesson leting us know that we are not MADE OF GLASS. Taking a surprise hit and then asserting control is the mark of a good martial artist.

    Zanshin should make it most difficult for someone to surprise you but no one can be utterly invincible.

    I still carry scars on my left arm from a weapon attack that I supposed to be empty handed.The weapon was a sharpened nail file disguised in a finger bandage. Like a fool I was swatting his attacks aside until I felt the blood running down my arm. Rather than stop or panic I went from idiotic swatting to all hell breaking loose.

    I agree that if we have control from the beginning there should be no fight so as you say if a fight kicks off it is the attacker who has (attempted to assert) control.

    My last frazing is because of my training that says we cannot for an instant allow the thought of defeat.

    regards koyo

    edit
    As to posting the Chiba Enoida post on another thread. I would if I felt that it would actually BE READ before being taken to pieces or ignored.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2006
  13. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Naw, speaking for myself, you seem balanced. Your thoughts & info are helping me, anyway, to find my place between the two extremes of "don't cause pain to the attacker" and "kill them all, and let God sort them out." I've needed some of that recently as I've felt a bit confused on the mat.
     
  14. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I took some nasty headshots today while experimenting with a few proposals for dealing with a knife threat from being held against the wall by the throat. Even deliberately going at 50% with good protective clothing on there were some dizzy moments as both attacker and defender. There were also some knife in the face moments with some of the variables I tried. :D


    Yes it comes down to - who started the fight - you or him? Who chose to start the argument - you or him? Who determined the location of the violence - you or him? Who chose to escalate it to a point where violence broke out - you or him? Who dictated the tactics you used - you or him? Who dictated which of your techniques finally finished the fight - you or him? Sometimes its surprising just how much the other guy does. :eek:


    I know what you mean. :rolleyes: I'll probably wrap up and move on after the inevitable infantile reply.
     
  15. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Had some fun with the knife threat you speak of with some military friends.If he does not know what he is doing and holds the knife up at you face or throat while pressing you against the wall, We found that be angling the left shoulder inside the knife (held in his right hand) we could sweep the elbow aside (since it was so close) and perform an elbow break (waste of time locking it),
    If the knife was held at his hip we would angle the Right shoulder outside the line of the knife trap his wrist (the one strangling) and "hammer the elbow as we moved off line.

    It took only a few of these moves to realise we had a "weapon" of our own. THE WALL!!
    A simple adjustment of our hip movement ensured that he went head first into the wall making it difficult to bring the knife into play.In the "ikkyo" type technique we simple grasped his hair (now behind him) and "attempted to knock the wall down" with his head/face.Or kick behind his knee if his leg was at the wall or stamp behind to bring him to his knees (again driving his head,as many times as needed, against the wall)
    The emphasis was on do not get cut, get the knifeman BEFORE you get the knife.Of course the spirit and the attitude of the troopers had a great influence on the training. I had to convince them to keep the sheath on the knife for safety. Just once the sheath fell loose and the "about to be victim" exploded the technique on.
    The reaction of the trooper who was almost concussed??? F.......ng A!!!!

    regards koyo

    Edit
    I used to write for Terry O'Neil's Fighting Arts magasine. loooong time ago.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2006
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Koyo,

    This sounds good.

    What we did was start from various positions but give the guy a determination to stab or cut you any way he could the moment you counter attacked (which is why I was in a high gear suit and my training partner in a head mask, chest guard, forearm guard and knee pads) - thus the drill was alive. I found myself using the wall quite a bit when we did attacks that had the threat come when you were in close proximity to a wall but I found this less easy to pull off when I was slammed against the wall with the guy holding me with his arm bent (fingers digging into my trachea - very uncomfortable) with the knife inches from my face and the attacker shouting abuse and instructions (that just changes the whole thing).

    What we quickly established in this sort of situation (where the only acceptable outcome was not to get touched by the knife at all and we were asuming a quick reacting nut who was ready to stab) was that we had to attack the head first. I found (this is a left hand round throat, right hand holding knife near face) that a left punch resulted in the knife coming down across the extended left arm. A right punch allowed me to grab the knife with my left but initially made follow throughs difficult due to the way the body turned away with the punch. We did eventually come up with one that worked under pressure without compromise. :D I'll try and film it on Saturday weather permitting.
     
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I do not envy you your task if you have to teach Jo Public. The guys I was teaching have been shouted at and abused by world experts, so are not easily intimidated.

    As you describe it with the left arm bent and digging in again I would angle the right shoulder and "hammer fist" the elbow to attempt to get behind him.I find that control of the elbow is effective in leading into a technique.We have an exercise wherein we do a defence slowly and study the "kisaki" point of the knife to ensure that it NEVER points at us again after the initial threat. Even when we find a technique that works very effectively, we go over it again emphasising the control or avoidance of the kiskai EVEN pointing at us.This results in a handfull of pragmatic effective techniques rather than a cattalogue of disasters.

    regards

    Koyo
     
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    On defense against all grab attacks, for practical application we always try not to give the opponent a "flat" surface to attack. The ideal movement/positioning most of the time seems to result in one of the opponent's arms over contracted (collapsed) and the other over-extended (reaching for you).
     
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Yup! from an aikido perspective. The art is executed from a TRIANGULAR kamae which sharpens into hito emi (sharper triangle) on entry or receiving an attck. So as you say the attacker shall find one arm overextended and the other contracted.

    O SEnsei using hito emi to enter however this is the same angle used to receive a two handed grasp.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 14, 2006
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    If it is of any use to you, when grabbed by the throat in that manner, the first response to train in can be to "turtle" (tuck the chin down, raise both shoulders, and lean the head into one side.

    As the shoulders are already raised to form the turtle, either of Koyo's responses could be driven off of this initial movement.

    Personally, if pinned to the wall, since I'm a smaller Bruce Lee sized person, there is a very good chance I would not be able to free the part of my body that is pinned to the wall. I must work, just as if someone was on top of me on the ground, the parts of my body that are not immobilized to free myself.

    1) With knife to the throat or what can be worse, pointed right into the heart, rotate at the hips and use the hand to slap the knife arm away from you body at an angle. Not across the body where you can get cut.

    2) Next cut or pull their elbow into me. Keeping sure the knife is pointing away from me. Once they are pulled into me, the pressure they had that was immobilizing me will be spread out, turn and sweep them into the wall. Hopefully they will go head first into the wall. Again making sure the knife is pointing away from me at all times.

    This would be basically how to reverse the situation, in that moment, break their wrist, arm or stab them with their own knife, or whatever comes.
     

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