Ressla, You are only a short trip down the M62 from us. Please come other if you want to get a better feel for what we do. The internet is useful, but not the best method of getting this stuff across. Paul Genge
Thanks Paul, I may well pop down to see what its like.Let me know what days you train and what times will be best for me to observe and hopefully I will be able to come sometime in the next few weeks. As i mentioned in the last post , i understand that the medium of video often doesnt do practitioners justice. I'm sure I'll be able to assess the system better after seeing it live.
The full details for the club are on the site. We train 7pm to 9pm on Sunday evenings. Any sunday is a good one. It is rare that I do not make it. Taking part is far more satisfying than sitting on the side lines. Just wear clothing and footwear that you don't mind getting dirty. Paul Genge Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
When I see people falling for no apparent reason, punching and reacting to punches in an unnatural fashion, and executing techniques and counters in super-slow motion that are not humanly possible at real speeds - I see a scam. I'm not saying that it's a bad marital art. I'm saying that it's not a martial art at all.
all fighting arts are martial arts by definition. Systema is a very good self defense system. You should try a class before judging it. There are classes in Brooklyn.
Well said firecoins!! I have no problem with people not thinking much of Systema, heck it's not going to stop me training or anything! I do object however to people seeing some clips on the net and then making sweeping statements like "martial arts rip off" and such. If you've trained in Systema and think it sucks then fair enough, I probably wouldn't mind discussing why you think it sucks as it's good to see others views of what you do. However judging it when you've had no real exposure to the art and don't have an understanding of the context behind any of the ways in which we train or the principles of the art is very arrogant in my view. :bang: Another MAP member, good old, Sonshu is still undecided about Systema BUT he has done a bit of training in it he can give IMHO valid reasons for some of the doubts he has and doesn't just turn round and say "ah it looks crap". Through out my training I've had doubts and I've seen some of my fellow Systema students have doubts about various things but we are encouraged to voice our concerns so that they can be explored. Most of us in our class have another MA background, be it a current art or one we've done in the past, including BJJ, Kickboxing, TKD, Kung Fu and Bujinkan Taijutsu. One guy, the BJJ chap, frequently asks " well how would that work on me", he's a big bloke, the response is ususally for him to have a "play" with the instructor and I can assure you he doesn't comply in anyway and he tends to come away with a satisfactory answer!!
I never said I looked at clips. I haven't. You don't know what my experience with systema is. When people collapse and their legs go all noodley because they are struck by some sort of bogus-looking punch made at a snail's pace - or when a systema instructor "turns into the knife" (let me see that full speed) - or when he slaps away a kick half-heartedly - you can imagine my reaction. I'm open-minded, but I'm not stupid. This stuff is dangerous and (most of the time) overpriced. Folks, your ex-super-dupper-elite-soviet-commando-unit intructor is giving you a Russian wedgie. Most Russians know better than to buy into this nonsense. They are used to these scams. That's why the super-commandos are in the US and UK. Fresh meat.
Dam someone better tell Paul to stop using it in his job wouldn't want him to end up as another Police Officer injured in the line of duty due to him wasting his time in a scam art!! As I said if someone has reasons for not thinking much of the art then fine I don't have a problem and wouldn't mind discussing it, so on that note Unisonus: 1) What experience have you got in Systema? 2) What's your understanding of the way we train? 3) What understanding have you got of the basic principles in Systema? Based on your answers above what’s your reasoning behind your opinion of Systema? Please don't think I'm trying to start a war of anything like that as that's not the case! I appreciate that you have concerns about the art and that you think it could lead to someone getting hurt and voicing such concerns is admirable IMHO. So lets try and address them. Thank you ps Just out of interest and so I've got a better understanding of your point of view what MA do you do?
"That's why the super-commandos are in the US and UK. Fresh meat." Actually the head of the system is in Moscow. That's Moscow, Russia. He works for the Russian Minister of Justice. If you catch the Go Warrior documentary on the Discovery channel you will see that. So either his hypnosis skills are good enough to fool the entire Russian military establishment or you are wrong in your "analysis". Hmmmm. As far as over-priced goes perhaps you can tell me the average price for a systema class, or what Vasiliev charges to become an affiliate?
I don't know that he's a troll - just a guy who hasn't done much research and doesn't understand the training methods. The fact that he chooses to be abusive is maybe just a reflection of his character.
It’s funny that of the three posts made in response to mine – the first asks for my credentials (i.e. the preliminary stage of an ad hominem attack), the second post calls me a troll, the last post calls me abusive (apparently, criticism is now a form of “abuse”) – but none of them of try to impugn any of my statements. What does this tell me? I really have no time to waste on people who resort to name-calling and personal attacks when they can’t defend their beliefs. We’re not in a school yard. Grow up. Talking about video clips - the following if from a website Mr. Genge provides in another thread: http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk/Knife defence.WMV Am I supposed to believe that the man in the video is imparting enough force to make the attacker fall over? Am I supposed to believe that the fall is realistic?
I don't think it is unreasonable to know how you have come to a negative view of systema. You said it wasn't the clips but your pointing out the clips as evidence. You also said we don't know your experience with systema. The next logical progression of this is to tell us what it is. You haven't so we need to ask you. If you have other experience in systema that we don't know, tell us. It may help your case. If you tried it and didn't like it, thats okay.
Ok just to quote myself and repeate my post: Could you please show me where in the my post I look like I'm starting out to attack you? If you have taken it this way then I appologise but I can't see how you have? I've even complimented you on the fact that you are willing to publicly question something that you feel may pose a danger. Like I said above I just wish to understand you reasoning for your views and would like some background info so I know who I'm talking to and how best to go about answering your concerns, your profile doesn't say what MA you study so I haven't even got that to go on. You say we haven't challenged your statements well to be honest I don't want to challenge anything I wouldn't mind discussing things with you? and to do that I need to know the reasons behind your views. Most people compare something new or unfamiliar to something the is familar with and from there start to compare and contrast. Usually we use our own experience as a measuring stick now in this case the stick would be your MA background. It would be helpful to know your MA background and also your level of knowledge of Systema training then once we have established that we can make a decent attempt at covering your concerns. For example if you have a Tai Chi background we could talk about energy absorbtion and redirection and how it applies to Systema or if you had a background in Bujinkan Taijutsu we could discuss the similarities between one or two of the Bujinkan Ryu and how they compare to Systema work. Do you agree? Thank you
Exactly the thoughts I had when I saw the clips. Mr Genge has ,however, invited me to witness systema in person so I'll reserve full judgement till after I experienced the warm welcome he has planned for me.
Breath and it wont hurt as much hmm I haven't trained with Paul but er just watch out if he gets a Cossack whip out them things bloody sting plus you have a hell of a time explaining the marks to the other half!!!
"I really have no time to waste on people who resort to name-calling and personal attacks when they can’t defend their beliefs. We’re not in a school yard. Grow up." Funny how people do this, they feel they can call your teachers liars and cheats, say what you do is useless and that you are basically an idiot then get all sniffy when you deign to question them . If you want to get a handle on what those soppy looking punches feel like, go and try one. If you want to criticise MR and VV's background, do some research. If you look at video clip and think it's crap, that's your opinion. Why I should take any particular note of it above my own experiences I don't know - can you give me a reason? I'm happy to defend my beliefs but I'm not interested in protracted pointless internet arguments with an anonymous poster.
Hi, bored with all the negative comments about systema. Grow up and if u think you ca do better, let me know as I would be interested to train and spar with you. Dont be shy! Vinny
You know, I had to go back through this to make sure it wasn't the same debate we were having over the knife defenses last week. I can say that I have read the articles on Mr. Genge's website, as well as just about everything else I can find on Systema. I've also watched the clips. I've made an effort to understand the slower motion training methodology, and have started to test it out with some of my co-workers to see if it has any value for what we do. I have, however, not trained in Systema nor have I gone out of my way looking for an opportunity to do so. I don't pretend to be an expert, or even "familiar" with the system. All I know is what I read on the websites, and what Mr. Genge has presented here. I can say what I know of Systema's training methodology doesn't seem to fit into my view of how combat should be prepared for. That doesn't mean Systema has nothing to offer or nothing I can learn from though. It also happens that the training methodology of most traditional Karate schools, WTF TKD schools, and Chinese Wushu schools doesn't fit my view either, yet they all have something to offer. Only a fool would dismiss combat systems tens of thousands of people practice and study every day without learning something about them. Systema being relatively new might not have the "name recognition" many martial artists are familiar with, but it could just as easily be the next big craze. How many people were honestly studying BJJ in 1984, yet it's everywhere today? People approach martial arts for different reasons, with different goals, and with different value sets. Pretending other systems are useless because they don't fit our particular view of the world is not only narrow-minded, but dangerous. The classic example of that kind of thinking was illustrated by strikers during the early days of the UFC as one-by-one they tapped out in shock. Climbing off my soapbox and examining the issue at hand, I have to admit I see some good things in the video clips. The drills are designed to develop flowing techniques and teach the practitioners to listen to their bodies and follow their instincts. It looks like a beginners Kenpo class actually, where new students are learning how to "flow" from one hand strike to the next based on the body's reaction to the previous strike. It would be hard to learn without the cooperative partner so many people seem to have such heartburn with, but then again so would the entire art of Aikido be difficult to learn without such a partner. My only criticism would be a personal pet peeve, and that's hitting with a closed fist to the head/face. I believe in hitting hard targets with soft tools such as the heel of the hand while saving the hard tools like the fist for the soft body targets. But then again, I focus heavily on not damaging the hand so I can transition to a weapon. Overall, I can see where these drill have a place within the striking concepts of the system. Systema may not be for everyone; I don't think it's for me. But dismissing it or any art out of hand turns a blind eye to something that could save your life by either teaching you a concept your current art is lacking, or giving you insight into the methods of a potential opponent. Pretending it isn't there is a lot more like impersonating an ostrich than being a true martial artist.
