Apparantly, I cannot see what is going on in this clip because my TaijiQuan skills are too low. :Angel: All I will say is that I need someone to do this to me before I change my current pov.... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKtK-ifyasc"]Gin Soon Chu, Dynamic Push Hand http://www.gstaichi.org - YouTube[/ame]
Call me a cynic but that reeks of WWE wrsestling style selling tricks. but by the laughter in the background it comes actross as deliberatley fake
Hmm, My Taiji skills must be far greater than yours, as I can clearly see that this is a nice, smelly pile of BS. Whether it's the teacher brain-washing his students to make himself look good, or his students exagerating to make their teacher look good, it is this kind of crap that gives Taiji a bad rep.
LOL.... Well that was interesting! I love the bits at 1:14 and 2:14! However, the guy is/was (supposedly) a student of Yang Sau Chung, so who knows what sort of stuff was taught, I've heard some really bizarre stories from that end of the tai chi spectrum. Here is BKF's little write up on Yang Sau Chung, from what I remember there is more in his IMA book, he called him something like "magnetic hands" or was it "magneto". http://www.energyarts.com/hires/library/masters/yangshao.html EDIT - Disclaimer: I don't believe what I'm seeing in this vid, but I dont disbelieve either.
I am not so sure... From the website they are claiming to be descended from Yang Zhenming: Yeung Sau Chung (1909-1985), also known as Yang Zhenming, was the oldest son of the famous Yang Cheng Fu and a Tai Chi Chuan tutor for his three younger brothers who are living in mainland China today. Also looking at a lot of the rest of the website, they have strong mentioning of many other TCC principles (much more than other websites where you check out demos like this). Each page is actually a pretty good read and contains much info similar to Yang style techniques by douglas wile. Though with the "flopping around" It seems the for the demo he got a low level student to do this. As is usually the case (obviously most students are lower than their teacher ) but I mean here a beginner. Anyone knowledgable in push hands would not "run up" to make contact, nor did the student ever establish a strong root, his spine was misaligned to "drain the physical power to the earth" and he leaned in almost everytime, giving the teacher a good point to push off of. As for some of the "hands off" techniques I have never seen this done and am a bit wary of it. Though from my studies of Qigong (in Qigong theory) it is possible as this is somewhat the reverse of external Qi healing. But bottom line, I would have to feel it and test it myself to be a proclaimer of it.
Wow, I didn't realize there was so many TCC masters on this forum, since some here seem to think they know what they are looking at. I can see that some here are fairly clueless as to what they are seeing, but that appears to be the norm these days, so I’ll take that with a grain of a salt. What people don't understand they usually lash out at, history has proven that. Chu Gin Soon is one of the last living great TCC masters out there today, and he's not afraid to show what he can do (even if some don't understand it). Anyone who has ever touched hands with him will tell you as much. He has personally convinced many naysayers along the way that thought he wasn’t the real deal. Please don't be offended, but I'm fairly certain most people on this forum couldn't shine his dirty shoes, but of course, behind the computer the keyboard warriors know better - Even though, CGS who has studied and taught for almost 50 years, and is the 2nd disciple of Yang Sau Chung (Yang Cheng Fu's oldest son), the keyboard warriors "think" they know better. This man opened up the first public TCC school in Boston’s Chinatown in 1969, was challenged immediately (in those days Boston was a hard core Karate town), and proven to be an extremely adept master/teacher of his art. In fact, many of the karate teachers from those days (those are the days when a black belt meant something) became his students and some still are today!! There is a good reason why his school and his teachings have flourished for almost 40 years, and mainly that reason is him! CGS! Maybe I’m talking to a bunch of teenagers here I don’t know, so I won’t expect much in reasonable reply’s to my post, but imho there is so much lack of understanding in TCC today, it's just plain silly - this is the reason why I left this forum a while ago; too much ignorance and not enough understanding to have informative discussions. Personally, I think it's pretty cool and I'm really not the new-age-chi-hugger type, but I know what I know from personal touch and that speaks much much louder to me than any keyboard TCC master's ignorant voices! In case some of you don't realize it, TCC is an art of internal energies no matter what some here may try to make you believe, and for those who spend their time training these energies the possibilities are boundless. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, why not have an open mind and try to understand what you are looking at, instead of assuming that you "know" better? Since you’ve not trained this methodology and have no personal insight, or understanding of it, what makes anyone here think they can pass judgement? Sure, there are some charlatans out there, but believe me folks, this guy ain't one of them. I think the man deserves a little more respect than what is shown here, but maybe I’m expecting too much from and Internet forum. Oh well. I know I’m wasting my time, but since this is a teacher of mine, and a man I respect tremendously, I felt compelled to respond. Now back to your regularly uninformed bashing.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. And you can get back to the sycophants at energeticsart. :Alien: I elaborate on my original statment regarding this..... If it is done to me, I will 'believe' what I see in this type of clip. Until then...... I keep an open mind
Ok, now you're saying you "keep and open mind," (which is great) but in the thread starter you were being sarcastic, and at this moment you are still being somewhat demeaning. So, let me ask you a question.... How are you going to experience these kinds of sensitivity skills if you don't work with anyone who possesses them? A one time encounter will not give you what you seek, because you need to spend some time working the process with someone far better in understanding than yourself. You, or anyone else for that matter, would need to work with someone for a while, and see for themselves how these skills can develop. It's nothing mystical or magical, only a natural extension of listening skills and awareness of one's self and others. Of course, if you don't, it will never happen and you (and others) can continue dismissing something that you will never understand or have any first-hand training experience with, which imho means "uninformed" to be kind. If I were a betting man, I'd say you will NOT try to understand and work with anyone to find out the reality of these skills.
I would have to say I have no doubt that this man is an excellent Tai Chi exponent, with skills to pay the bills. However, I find it most unfortunate that he resorts to parlor tricks, and, need I say, brainwashing To prove his skill. It's unfortunate we live in a world of people gullible enough to buy in to this kind of thing. Let's watch his son give Mr. Man Boobs convulsions from rubbing his tummy: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__M-Wd6NjiE"]Vincent Chu, Fa jin, Dynamic Push Hands, http://www.gstaichi.org - YouTube[/ame]
Seriously though I'll bite. I'm interested in this kind of thing if it's real. Why don't you tell us what we are looking at in these videos? Are we looking at a few guys who are seriously powerful and skilled enough to send these goobers flying with a small twitch of their body? Or are we looking at a drill that involves voluntarily going flying at the slightest twitch of the opponents body? What kind of applicable skill can be developed by doing this type of exercise? What can be done to develop these skills?
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lugB54iV930"]Vincent Chu 1990 -Two Man Set - http://www.gstaichi.org - YouTube[/ame] Do you think that the type of training shown in the above clip will develop any sort of measurable skill? Where is the intent? Where is the INTENT?? Why does vincent chu spin in a cute little circle at 0:55?? Got any guys down in the N. Alabama area that want to cross hands?
i will never believe this untill someone trys it one me. Till then i'm gonna keep practicing my arm bars.
Yes, his son could wipe the floor with most tcc players today. I push with him all the time, and I can tell you from first hand experience that he is no joke! Concerning the clip, what do you expect? Blood? It's a demonstration of skills, not a real fight. I think the fajing looks tremendous in that clip, but I'm sure you know better! Nobody is pretending to "feel" something - they really do feel it and react to it, just as I do when I am energetically discharged. I can understand some people's skepticism on this matter, and I for one was the same way before I started training with these guys, but proof is in the training and the touch. There are more than a few talented teachers that do the same work, it's not just us. Again, what experience with this training do you have Mr I do Mantis? Do you even practice TCC? According to your profile you do not. Like I said, I'm most likely wasting my time responding, so after this thread dies, I'll be gone and everybody can go back to their regular biased and prejudiced opinions on this matter.
dude it's just a soft display of the movements, it's done that way on purpose. Of course, it can be done with much more vigor, power, and intent which is the way our students usually practice it, but in the clip it's all slowed down for viewing purposes. Come on will ya, what are you 15 years old?
Still, you don't understand. You have to TRAIN specifically for these skills, it will not happen in a first time encounter.
YES, you are looking at someone with very powerful and effective fajin skillz (not very easy skillz to acquire I might add). In a martial sense, it's the skill of fajin that so many TCC people seek so hungrily. Of course, the more you train with people like this, the more sensitive you become to them and that is part of what the training is about. You can't listen until you open your ears. Afterwards, you can learn to discharge energy (fajin). Have you ever heard the term "invest in loss" - to understand this work, much time has to be invested in loss. How can we truly learn to yield to another force without it? In other words, we do not try to win or to push the master over (that is not the point) - the point is to learn to listen to the force that is coming your way, relax your structure, maintain your frame and feel as much as you possibly can. That is all the physical stuff. Only once one has gained the skills of listening correctly and developing the proper integrated body method (opened energy pathways) do you work on the issuing of energy yourself (at least for me). I hope you understand. Pushing is not really about pushing people over, and the form is really not about the choreography, if you want to know the truth. It can be about that, and that is fine, but the deeper aspects (the yin peng-jin aspects) are the opposite training. For me, it's more about feeling the lines of energy and working from there, but it does take two and it is cooperative to some degree to learn it. Now, this doesn't mean that the two people are faking it, I'm talking about cooperating with each other to learn how to feel and listen to what is there. As far as I know this is the only way. There is no voluntary flying going on at all.. only a heightened sensitivity to the masters discharge. If anything, this "goober" as you put it, is beyond a beginner player since he has now acquired some basic skills of listening and yielding. Of course, the student isn't trying to push him, he is learning to "listen" and that is what most of the skill is about as far as I know. The demo clip is intended to show the fajin skill of the master, not the student if that makes it any clearer for you. The cooperation between master and student is for the students benefit to learn how to listen and receive, and as I said, the discharge (fajin) comes later. There are not too many people out there these days that know how to properly issue a fajin strike, push, etc. It takes quite some time really. The applicable skill that devlops is the usage of a heightened awareness and intent. In other words, reading an opponent before they act(ion). As I said before, it's a sensitivity thing. I recommend a book called "Warriors of Stillness" which can shed more light on the subject as well some stuff that Fong Ha has written in the past concerning energy work (by the way, Fong Ha emphasises quite a lot of energy work in his teaching). To develop these skills, you have to work with people who understand energy and have a higher understanding of taichi energies than yourself. We practice different versions of the dynamic pushing hands methods which involves strenuous static press vs press - press vs ward off - press vs shoulder, etc. as well as some associated gigong exercises to loosen and strengthen the body. Of course, standing is essential to get the very real skill of central equilibrium, which is much harder than most people take for granted. Furthermore, we use various staff exercises (like stick shaking) to develop the skill of issuing. Imho, first you train the body (no small matter), open the pathways within your body, and then you begin to "listen" - afterwards you can learn to "join" which is where I am currently at and working with. I hope this answers your questions.
So, just out of curiosity, at what point in your TCC training do you actually begin training to respond appropriately to the movements of your opponents (AKA defending properly rather than running backwards, or jumping up and down), or having such a bad root that you are thrown across the room by a slight bump from your masters root? First off, you do realize that listening and sensitivity (along with rooting) are priority one in many CMA's, SPM included. So just because you practice TCC doesn't mean you have the monopoly on those skills. We spend 90% of our time developing listening/sticky hands and strong root and structure. Call me crazy, but I think that listening is intrinsically linked to having good structure and root, feeling what your opponent is doing, and sinking any power that gets sent your way into the ground (sink, swallow, rinse, repeat ) not cooperating with your partner 100% and locking your structure so that you can be thrown about. You don't have to have that much listening skill to feel those little pushes, and beyond that, all you need to do is run backwards or jump up and down when you feel it (which is what these clips look like). So at what point does getting thrown across a room, made to jump up and down, or convulsing spastically translate into that heightened awareness and intent. I don't really see how the training methods you are supporting correlate. I mean, let's take a simple push. here's how your training methodology looks to me. 1. Respond to a push by allowing yourself to be thrown backwards 10+ feet, running backwards across the room, or jumping up and down. 2. Attain heightened awareness through that practice. Do you see why this isn't making any sense to me? You don't have to train TCC to understand energy and listening. You didn't answer one of my questions though. Have you got anyone down in the N. Alabama area or S. Tennessee area who would be interested in crossing hands? I'm 2 years into JLSPM and would love to see one of your guys in action.
I'm sorry Yohan, and I mean no disrespect (even though you have been), but you do not understand a word of what I'm saying (by your own responses), so I will leave it at that and let my posts stand on their own worth. We do not speak the same language, or train the same methods (nor does it appear that you ever will explore these methods), so you can continue with your own prejudices. My goal is to understand TCC and that's what this training is about. The problem today is TCC has lost it's way and people think it's about bashing trees and wearing boxing gloves. As the famous head of the Wu family (Ma Yueh Liang) once stated, "It took me ten years to find my chi and another ten to learn how to use it!" Do you understand what Ma is talking about here? Do you know what "IT" is??? He's talking about chi energy and it's usage, which is what TCC is really all about!!! See the Ma clip here: (this one will blow your socks off). Take note at the two minute mark.... [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_gmMqzf2I8"]Ma Yu Liang push hands - YouTube[/ame] Lastly, I have tried in earnest to answer your questions true to my own experiences and practice, and at this point I find little benefit of continuing a dialog on the topic, or trying to go back and forth to convince you of something you will never train for yourself. I really just initially came on here to defend a great TCC master, and although he doesn't read the Internet (doesn't speak much English), I thought I would put a contrary view since most here were slagging a talented and skillful master that I personal know. Enjoy your training..
