Double Staff Form

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Yuhp Cha Ki, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Unknown; very much appreciated.

    Best Wishes,

  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    When did I say that? I've never indicated that one needs to be on the inside to "understand" KSW. All I said was that you had little or no substantive understanding of Kuk Sool yet you used the terms "garbage" and "swill" to describe what you saw on the video tape. I'm somewhat at a loss regarding the non-sensical nature of your responses to me and the fact that you still haven't addressed my question to you about hurting rather than helping.

    If ever I get hungry for a philosophical discussion regarding the relative merits of whatever each of us have to offer the KMA, Steve, I'll be sure to let you know. In the meantime, I have the information that I need regarding what KSW has to offer and how things come to be the way they are.

    Just not what I'm looking for, plain and simple.

    Best Wishes,

  3. trailblazer

    trailblazer Valued Member

    I know that the fancy demo version works just fine and it will inflict much damage. It depends on the executioner. I think any of the demonstrators in the video show that they have control of their staff. They don't have footage of the medieval battle field, but practice for control of your staff weapon will often look like what was shown in the video. To Bruce: When was the last time you spun a staff ? If it was anytime in the past 10 years, you would recognize the skill and strength the demonstrators achieved. You're such a scholar, yet you can't answer Steve's reasonable questions, or give your opinion on whether Master Huh's demonstrations were authentic.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2009
  4. ember

    ember Valued Member

    The rocket scientist is not nearly experienced enough to answer that question.

    For all that rockets have been used in Asia for centuries, the rocket scientist's study of history has focused on the last ~50-200 years. Archery and spear throwing are a part of Kuk Sool Won and the closest we have to missiles. To the best of my knowledge, rocketry is not one of the 24 traditional weapons.
  5. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Ember you crack me up!! ROFLMAO

    Sorry TB, I wasn't referring to the video, but the fact that many MAists say what we do isn't practical (usually MMA proponents), that its too flashy, etc. Also, while the flashy stuff might work, the short & sweet is usually better, IMO. Cut to the chase and get it over with, economy of motion, blah, blah blah. :bang:
  6. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    *Chides Ember*

    Didn't you know that Koreans pioneered the rocket-propelled arrow launcher?

    Obviously your art is completely inauthentic.

    In my school, we practice the original rocket techniques.

    Though I must admit my left hand bong hits are probably very rusty after all these years.

  7. seo727

    seo727 Valued Member

    "Just not what I'm looking for, plain and simple"

    Ok, so you're basing this on internet boards and looking at a few videos?

    "If ever I get hungry for a philosophical discussion regarding the relative merits of whatever each of us have to offer the KMA, Steve, I'll be sure to let you know."

    Really Bruce? Coming from you I find that odd. Given the prodigious nature of your web presence and your willingness to start or participate in almost any discussion remotely KMA related, that statement doesn't seem to line up with your past behavior.

    I also feel compelled to point out that I wasn't even asking you a philosophical question. Just a very simple, direct question. If you consider yourself the torch bearer of Yeon Mu Kwan and a self professed historian/scholar, shouldn't you at least place the same standards of behavior and responsibility to Korean Martial Arts on yourself that you hold others accountable to? Or maybe I'm wrong and you and I really have different takes on what it means to be a martial arts Instructor/Master/Historian or whatever else you consider yourself.

    Steve Seo
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2009
  8. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    I believe there is too much philosophical BS going on and not enough physical training in the dojang. Lets pick up a joong bong and train for hours until your feet drill holes in the earth. Then we can all come back to the MAP and discuss what we have learned.

    We need not base our MA or skill level on a piece of film taken out of context we should instead try to learn from and respect one another. To answer the question from th TS, I have never seen this technique done except this vidio. I have tried to mimic this tech. it is very hard to do. if you try it wear a sparring helmet LOL.
  9. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    You are absolutely right, Steve. And that is why you won't find me making-up crap and representing it as some sort of authentic Korean tradition. As far as standards go, I must confess that I, personally, don't actually identify any "Standards" in this sort of behavior at all. What I seem to have had confirmed to me is that there is a family business with a MA theme and the brothers had a falling-out over who would be in charge. Now, the pathology has passed to the next generation and THEY are playing games about what constitutes a Korean tradition. I have no dog in this race. You are certainly free to jerk around as many people as might buy into your games. Its just not anything I have much interest in.

    Best Wishes,

  10. seo727

    seo727 Valued Member

    “Now, the pathology has passed to the next generation and THEY are playing games about what constitutes a Korean tradition.” “You are certainly free to jerk around as many people as might buy into your games.”

    Too bad that you have to try to resort to questioning my integrity when you run out of anything relevant to say and won't address questions posed to you. Unfortunately for you, you have no basis for saying that I’m somehow misrepresenting myself and playing games. I can assure you that I tell it like it is, will look you straight in the eye and won’t BS or screw around. Do I think mistakes were made in the past? Of course. Do I think that there are aspects of Kuk Sool history that need to be revisited? Probably. Do I think that it’s appropriate for you to call Kuk Sool “swill”, “garbage” and “crap.” No way. You’ve taken a huge leap by saying my inquiry into your accountability and personal behavior means that I’m playing games and trying to misrepresent what I’m about and what my training is all about. Building on Obewan’s point, my primary focus is on training, teaching and actually working with martial artists rather than an incessant obsession with the past and insulting those that came before me. My goal has always been around how I can be a positive change agent and how I can bring value to Korean martial arts through training, giving seminars, running great events and helping connect martial artists with others that may normally not be exposed to. If that means I’m playing games and jerking people around, than I would seriously reexamine your thought process.

    Take care Bruce, I too have had my eyes opened as to what you are all about.
  11. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    isn't the 2 staff form called the chinook?
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Wrong, Steve. You are absolutely wrong in these statements.

    What you are seeing in me is the natural consequences arising from folks such as yourself playing "head games" with non-Korean practitioners. In those games it is quite common for people such as yourself to invoke "fairness" (as in the case of our exchange), "honor", "integrity" and many other fine qualities while following behaviors very much in the opposite direction. Did you think that generation after generation of KMA teachers could trade on this double standard without anyone ultimately calling you on your game? Now you are working hard to represent yourself as the offended person of good intentions. Perhaps you should take some time to read the thread on the proposed KSW franchise and note how many other people are getting tired of the SUH/SEO manner of doing things.

    Now....lets remember how we got here.

    a.) Despite the objections to my calling this material "garbage", noone has demonstrated that it is anything other than stuff made-up for sale to gullible practitioners.

    b.) Despite many references across a couple of generations of practitioners to this material proceeding from "traditional Korean MA" there is no documentation supporting such claims.

    Now, if you really want to discuss "fairness" and fair play lets start there.

    BTW: References to having your "eyes opened" as though I have been revealed to be some hidden but nefarious agent is yet another example of how your bid for "fairness" is wholly contrived. The fact is that if your values were actually what you state them to be you would do what you are doing regardless of whether or not you were compensated. You run a martial-art-themed family business for your father. The rest is marketing.

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Feb 25, 2009
  13. dbt4581

    dbt4581 Valued Member

    Good one... :cool:
  14. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor


    Your idea of research fails.

    You're condemning something you haven't done research on.

    Fact: You have no idea where the sets exhibited come from. They may be new, they may be old. You don't know.

    Fact: Relating them to the Muyaedobotongji only works if they claim to be derived from the Muyaedobotongji. Bulgyomusul does not.

    Fact: You have zero experience in Bulgyomusul. You've read a few books which may or may not be accurate. You are limited to second hand sources since you lack the linguistic ability to look into them firsthand. Many of your claims are prima facie incorrect because of this.

    Your attitude is completely uncalled for.

    It is not scholarly.

    It is not logical.

    It arises from your own persecution complex.

    There is a reason you have been banned from nearly every martial arts forum related to the Korean martial arts.

    You should probably leave this one until you can pull yourself together & get your ego out of your way. You're not going to change anything with your approach.
  15. seo727

    seo727 Valued Member


    You misunderstood my last statement. I didn't mean that you were "a nefarious agent" nor was I calling out fairness as the issue. I meant that I think I really do understand why you reacted in the way you did. Let's take this example. You see my surname as Seo. I've asked you a single question and then you've already pegged me as garbage peddling hypocrite. What I'm seeing is that you've convinced yourself that you and so many others have been wronged by previous Koreans that someone like me must be just like them. You're way off here Bruce. First of all, I'm not my uncle. I have no current connection with the WKSA nor do I have any say in the Franchise agreement process. Secondly, yes my father is GM In Sun Seo. Do I respect him for all he's accomplished in the martial arts and have I learned a great deal from him? Of course. Am I him? No. Third, I'm an American citizen. While my ethnicity and heritage is Korean, my thought process, education and experiences are very American. I also believe in transparency in doing business. Anyone that takes the time to meet me in person or call me will attest to the fact that I have nothing to hide nor do I misrepresent myself or the organization I am a part of.

    My only issue with you was that you called what you saw garbage and subsequently never addressed that point. Have I seen documented evidence that every movement and every technique that I've been taught somehow links back to historical documents? Sorry, I haven't. I do know that the movements and techniques are effective. I expose others to techniques that work. If you want to apply your own filter based on your research and think that bimodal application is not Korean and spinning training is not useful, than go ahead and do so. If you think someone who wants to learn a technique that works is gullible, than I think you're advocating the proliferation of a whole bunch of bad Korean martial artists. Like I said, I do believe in transparency so if someone approaches me and asks a simple question about tracing back each Kuk Sool technique to a given historical Korean source record, I'll be honest with them that typically it's not that easy to do so. I can attest to the fact that GM Suh and Seo are very well versed when it comes to Korean Martial Arts history and documents (more so than you most likely as they have access to documents in their orginal hanja/hanmun). Moreover, Master Barry Harmon's research (Master Harmon is probably the one non Korean that has done the most historical research on Kuk Sool) into Korean history does show several connections to historical sources that I found interesting.

    Steve Seo
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I think, in your heart you are a good person, so I will say only that you may want to avoid jumping to conclusions about what I have, and have not, researched, what my linguistic skills are and what the operational definition of such words as "scholarly" and "persecution complex" might be.

    I'm afraid that your comments suggest that you have run out of intelligent arguments and are forced to fall-back on empty and failed bluster used by others before you who found themselves in similar straits.

    Best Wishes,

  17. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    As usual, you are incapable of contradicting the facts I have outlined, so you resort to equivocation. This is the same pattern we've seen time & time again with you, Bruce.

    Feel free to prove me wrong.

    What is your bulgyomusul experience?

    What sources do you draw your bulgyomusul research from?

    Are any of them firsthand , original language sources?
  18. Obewan

    Obewan "Hillbilly Jedi"

    Here is the problem with this discussion. We are talking about two different cultures and philosophies.

    The problem that Bruce has is he has difficulty with accepting traditional martial arts.

    I do not know about your history Bruce or where you trained or if you ever did train in a martial art one thing that is clear is the fact that you have no idea what a good technique looks like.

    You have no respect for the masters who have gone through god knows what to bring the Korean MA to us. And if you are currently in the Martial Arts you disrepect your instructors and masters by your actions. Grandmaster Suh and Grandmaster Seo have done a great deal for the KMA's.

    Let me ask you a question Bruce do you think that MA history being correct and accurate is more important than technique correctness and skill level?
  19. MasterDunchok

    MasterDunchok Valued Member

    For the record regarding my master and nunchaku:

    He always considered Kuk Sool officially to be comprised of 18 weapons. Apparently there is some tradition to that number of weapons. However, in the 1970s, he himself was a fan of Bruce Lee, and was friends with the hapkido people working with Bruce Lee in movies, and so he took up nunchaku, even double nunchaku to do it one better. (And remember that nunchaku is a Japanese weapon and Bruce Lee was a CMA practicioner)

    For that reason, on his personal resume he always says he knows "19" weapons, ie, the 18 of Kuk Sool plus nunchucks.

    When I was putting together the curriculum for my new school, I asked him where I should put jool bong on the curriculum. He waved it off saying, "yellow belt - they can play" : indicating that he does not take it seriously as an official Kuk Sool weapon.

    So the "Ssang Jool Bong Hyung" you see him performing in that clip is his personal creation. I personally think it looks great. And it has become a sort of informal part of Kuk Sool Kwan. Maybe as time goes, it will even become full-fledged.

    After all, martial arts do evolve with time. And it's hard to pin down what constitutes "Korean martial arts" anyway. All the weapons in the Muyedobo books are Chinese or Japanese. lol You know that Kuk Sool sword is just a straightened Japanese katana - the Koreans took it up in the 17th century because they thought it was a pretty damn good sword.

    It just happens that I know of a Korean in the 20th century who thought nunchaku were cool and took them up.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2009
  20. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Obewan, you're completely wrong.

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