Double Staff Form

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Yuhp Cha Ki, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Dude, you're not helping.

    If you really wanna do that, start a thread where you can call Bruce out & let this one stay on its original topic.

    This is what I was talking about.

    If you want things to stay on topic, move forward, & stay peaceful, you have to set aside your own ego. Bruce may have started this with his insults earlier...but all you're doing is continuing it with your need to lambast him & prove him wrong.

    Which is fine. In its own topic.
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I can respond to your observation two ways.

    The first way is to say that over the last 20 years I can probably count on one hand the number of people who examine Korean martial traditions from within the context of how they actually evolved. Those folks study Korean history and Korean culture, ask questions and are more than a little critical about answers. I can give you a pretty decent reading list of sources that will bring you to a better appreciation for how Korean martial traditions evolved but there won't be any glossy MA magazines or organizational websites on that list.

    The alternate way to respond to your question is to say that the manner in which you framed your question is both provocative and directive. It supposes, in the asking, that I am somehow "stuck" in the Middle Ages. This would seem to confirm my suspicions that you have read one too many copies of the sort of well-thumbed "histories" available for easy mass consumption. Am I anywhere near the mark?

    Best Wishes,

  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    So....... getting back to the thread..........

    Lets take the TS at their word and let him know if there is any substance to this Staff material or is this simply a construction for the entertainment of the KS community? Comments?

    Best Wishes,

  4. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    You're not going to change, are you Bruce?

    You draw some measure of satisfaction from the conflict. It's not about historicity. It's about being right.
  5. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    No, Monk; thats where you are wrong.

    I would absolutely LOVE to be wrong. I would absolutely LOVE to have someone come to me in an intelligent fashion and say, "here ya go, Bruce; this is the resource that validates what we are doing as what we believe it to be."

    Is that so darn hard?

    How many years have practitioners of the KMA been fed made-up junk and told that it was genuine Korean traditions? Now we have NUNCHUKAS, TONFA and back-flips and there are people who actually believe this is an accurate portrayal of KMA.

    Let me ask this one more time (for the people in the cheap seats):

    Does critical thinking enter into any of this stuff


    is this just material put together for the entertainment of the KS population?

    Life's too darn short.

    Best Wishes,

  6. AirNick

    AirNick Valued Member

    You think that all these things you seemingly despise are limited to KS? Why aren't you on Kung Fu forums bashing those guys as well?

    Let's face it, you have a massive beef with KS, always have. Any chance to jump in and have dig and you will.
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Nick, but I didn't name the clip that the TS used in his opening post. The clip title clearly represents that the clip is about KS "Buddhist Connection". I think it is fair to ask how the material is related to Buddhist practices and how this was validated or documented? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  8. trailblazer

    trailblazer Valued Member

    I can respond to your observation two ways.
    In that case, you have very limited exposure to experts in Korean Martial. The experts I know, would be laughing, only on the inside. On the outside, they would tell you, you are right about everything.

    The Korean Martial Arts experts I know, would listen to you for 3 minutes, then lock their jaw shut and never speak to you again. Though they would nod politely, and smile warmly, in response to every fact you proclaim. Mainly, because, like MadMonk108 said, its very clear you only care about being right. In many cultures, the incessant need to be right is considered a mental sickness, and pity is taken on you.

    please do.

    Part of being trapped repeating one day of the medieval, middle ages, is an inability to see that things are evolving right around you, all the time. Fixating on old leather bound books, with 14 ways to use the staff, is, undeniably, closed minded.

    No, you're way off. Though, it would be polite to tell you , "you're right.'" I won't. Since you didn't think to satisfy my curiosity about whether you think what Master Dunchok's Master, in the clip above, is demonstrating what you would calll, "authentic" or "factual," Korean Martial Arts. Do you think what Master Huh is doing has any "veracity?" Do you think it's "useful?" Or, IYHO is he just entertaining us?

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  9. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    there's no need to be partonizing bruce, just cos people don't agree with you. if you really feel the need to debate the authenticity of everything related to korean ma, then start another thread on that subject, and stop bombarding every1 with your obsession on every thread you can.
  10. ImaJayhawk

    ImaJayhawk Valued Member

    That's actually different than the Sahng Dahn Bong Hyung that we do.

    That documentary was done in 1976 and produced by the Korean Ministry of Culture and Tourism. In Sun Seo was the main consultant for the documentary.

    As far as how it is related to Buddhist practices, I'm not sure. I don't think most people would know who practice Kuk Sool. We pretty much take what we are told at face value because 1) we don't have any reason to mistrust the info, 2) we don't have any conflicting info and 3) we weren't involved in the creating of the material so it's hard to argue with those that were. I think even though what we are told is only one side of the story that most of us take it with a grain of salt.

    I think if you want to start a new thread and show how those that are interested can better educate themselves on the authentic Korean traditions, that would be great. But ultimately the questions you are asking need to be asked of those that made the video.
  11. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Bruce, it's not about the material you wish to address or your views.

    I agree with your positions on much of it.

    It's how you go about presenting those views & dealing with people who disagree with you.

    It's one thing to disagree, even bluntly. It's completely different to be insulting, be it blatantly or passive-aggressively. You don't have to respond insult for insult. You don't have to respond to criticism with ad hominum attacks.

    You stick with logic. You stick with research.

    If people want to agree, they will. If they want to disagree, they will.

    If you're frustrated, then take a breather. Don't take your frustrations out on people. That doesn't help the rest of us trying to research these subjects objectively.

    You think I'm not concerned about the presentation of Buddhist martial arts? Look what I've devoted my life to! I am concerned, passionately! But it would negate what the monks have taught me if I go back to being the ******* I was.
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well, thank Gawd!! Thank you, Jayhawk. Thank you very much. That was all I was wanting to know.

    Each time I mention my own interest in emphasizing the greater Chinese contributions to the KMA I routinely get directed towards KSW or one of its derivatives.

    And each time I tie into one of these discussions there is always some question about whats being discussed, what was said and what was meant. OK.
    So here we have a situation where there is a rather clear claim to a connection between KSW and (in this case) Buddhist traditions. I looked at it and saw clearly that from where I stand this is absolute crap. The feedback that I got was that people are not suppose to criticize the generally accepted truthes. All that I wanted to know is if the feedback I was getting and the conclusion I was drawing were accurate. So, now I know what the story is and thats just fine. I'm not particularly interested in someone's construction about what KMA is about....but you don't know until ya ask, right?

    Thanks again, Jayhawk; much appreciated.

    Best Wishes,

  13. seo727

    seo727 Valued Member

    "Excuse me, Steve, but I find it odd that a non-Korean spends so much time defending traditions that Koreans spend so much time mucking-up.

    In your case, Steve, you more than most people ought be aware of the writings of Prince Sado, of the Korean SIB PAL KI, of the history of the training methodologies passed from the 17th Century to the late 1800-s so I find it hard to understand why you would take umbarage at my identifying this contrived crap for what it is.

    There are, in fact, people who do not know better and are readily sucked into believing pretty much anything that is passed in their direction. I would hate to think that you are either one who is being sucked in or one who promoting this junk."

    Bruce, your statements assume a lot about what I'm all about and what my motivations are. As someone who purports to being a historian and a rational thinker, I would expect you to focus on what I posted, not your predeterminations of who or what my intensions are. Let me clarify once again since you seem to have missed my points entirely the first time:

    1. My post specifically called out that I respect your right to question "authenticity" but to call out something as "swill" and "garbage" in this context is irresponsible at best. These masters on the video are demonstrating skills which will stand up as highly skilled and deserve more than to be called garbage. Now, if you want to question the historical accuracy of certain movements and training sets with some historical references, that's fine and it's something I recognize as valid discourse.

    2. Secondly, you completely ignored the second part of my post. One thing I'm trying to do is to think about my generation and future generations of martial arts. Bruce, as much as you try, I don't believe you can impact the history of Korean Martial arts as much as you can the present and future. My focus has been on the here and now. On that front, bringing down fellow martial artists and other martial arts via insults and negativity may be as harmful or more harmful than whatever mistakes our past leaders made. If we're going to call out historical events and previous mistakes our founders have made, you have to hold yourself to the same standards when it comes to your own statements, writings, etc.

    Going back to the original thread, I have trained in double staff drills but am not aware of an official Kuk Sool form.

    Steve Seo
  14. Yuhp Cha Ki

    Yuhp Cha Ki Valued Member


    What I'm referring to is the bits at 1:50 and 1:59 (martial artist in the background). I'm not talking about the double short staff form.

    I thought I was asking a fairly simple questions:

    1 - Does anyone know of anyone that practices double staff(joong bong)?
    2 - Is there a form that only a few know/are privvy too?

    I'm not interested in Bruce/Matt arguing with each other or the general slating of KS by Bruce.

    All I want is for people to discuss the questions and to share their knowledge.

  15. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    My guess would be that this was a particular skill of the demonstrator, something he was obviously very good at. It's athletically impressive. It shows a great degree of dexterity & coordination. It looks good on camera.
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Well, Steve, you can complain all about how I express myself all you want. Here is a quote from "Unknown KJN" (see: "hidden ksw material").

    Well, you will undoubtedly find this ironic, but one of the key phrases used by WKSA about it's goals is that it is dedicated to the preservation of traditional Korean Martial Arts (emphasis is my own). And despite the origin of the various material used to construct the KSW system, certainly the idea of "true MA" taking a scholarly approach can't be denied, and is definitely urged at the higher ranks. FWIW

    Now this is the same position I have been fed each time the matter comes up. What I hear is that KSW is dedicated to preserving "traditional Korean martial arts". My guess is that Unknown KJN is one of those you commented need to be on the inside to really "understand KSW". OK, fine.

    This is NOT the view I am getting from THIS thread. JAYHAWK has made it plain enough that its just about following what one is fed and that stands in contrast to what "Unknown" points out.

    Now...... maybe one of you rocket scientists might take pity on this lowly outsider and explain what the real KSW is about, yes?

  17. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Let's set the record straight, and maybe Bruce will understand that this film wasn't an attempt by KSW to make *outrageous* claims...

    First, I believe that YouTube made some changes to their XML conversion software, and the clip used to not be squished, but in the expected 4:3 format. Submitted by our "old pal" Gene Gause, this is a small segment of a film commissioned by the S. Korean Gov't. back in the 70's, titled Ho Kuk Mu Yea (호국무예) - usually translated as, "Martial Arts used to defend the country." Interestingly enough, a post back in 2006 from the Sword Forum International by one J. Pitts, asked you (meaning you specifically, Bruce) about obtaining a copy, so you should be aware of the history surrounding this film.

    FWIW although the majority of people portrayed in the movie are KSW, about 15% (more or less) of the content is comprised of HKD & TKD (towards the end). The "improper" pronunciation by the obviously British narrator is not indicating that what is being portrayed visually is in any way connected to what he's taking about, rather the narrative is merely some facts gleaned from historical accounts and added to the mix as extra information about KMA. Monks use staffs and here's some staff play, NOT this is a depiction of the staff play mentioned in these historical accounts.

    At least, that's my 2¢.

    And to answer Yuhp Cha Ki, supposedly the original KSW syllabus contained 4 hyung each for each weapon. But that got whittled down long before GM IHS immigrated to the USA (AFAIK), and finding someone who learned (or remembers) that form would be rather difficult, at least IMO. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but if you should happen to discover someone who knows it & is willing to share, please be sure to let me know ASAP. :cool:

    EDIT: Quite a few posts got added while I was typing out my response (I'm a bit slow). I first thought that Yuhp Cha Ki was referring to the double long staff work (in my recollection of the film, I always admired that too) but didn't notice it in the clip when I played it. If you did mean that, YCK, then I doubt it was part of a form but just some drill to practice the movements while holding two long staffs, much like the walking/moving techniques for mid-length staff.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  18. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned


    Then, given your answer, there are actually two questions that need to be answered.

    1.) The first is the role of critical thinking in validating what a KSW adherent practices.

    2.) And now a second question as to whether what is being preserved is authentic traditions or rather what KSW wants represented as "traditional". Remember, Unknown, the clip was entitled "KUK SOOL WON's Buddhist Connection". Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

  19. seo727

    seo727 Valued Member

    "Now this is the same position I have been fed each time the matter comes up. What I hear is that KSW is dedicated to preserving "traditional Korean martial arts". My guess is that Unknown KJN is one of those you commented need to be on the inside to really "understand KSW". OK, fine."

    When did I say that? I've never indicated that one needs to be on the inside to "understand" KSW. All I said was that you had little or no substantive understanding of Kuk Sool yet you used the terms "garbage" and "swill" to describe what you saw on the video tape. I'm somewhat at a loss regarding the non-sensical nature of your responses to me and the fact that you still haven't addressed my question to you about hurting rather than helping.

    Yuhp Cha Ki, while I don't think you can find an actual form, I think doing double staff work ensures that you get proper conditioning on both sides of the body and also forces you to concentrate and spinning in different directions at one time that puts additional stress on the joints. Double weapons work also helps with focus and concentration that you may not get with one.
  20. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    Second question answered first:

    As I said, the YouTube video was posted by Gene Gause. You'll have to take up why he named it the way he did with him (personally, I don't agree). To keep things in proper context, you really need to watch the entire movie, not just a snippet. I don't recall exactly, by it was at least 30 minutes long, more or less.

    I had always thought it was an unbiased propaganda film for KMA, produced by the Ministry of Culture & Tourism (per ImaJayhawk's post #30). The predominance of KSW in the film makes more sense knowing that In Sun Seo was the primary consultant.

    Answer to your First question:

    Most KSW members practice what's in the current curriculum, regardless of where the content is derived. You once stated that in your kwan, you are expected to do research and report back to the kwan with your findings. Sorry, but there ain't no such animal in KSW.

    And did you mean validate WRT "is it functional?" or "is the representation historically accurate?" Cuz a lot of the stuff we do DOES work in live situations, provided the *fancy* demo version is omitted and the *nitty gritty* version is embraced. You can probably guess my take on the "historically accurate" aspect. :rolleyes:

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