Double Staff Form

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by Yuhp Cha Ki, Feb 22, 2009.

  1. Yuhp Cha Ki

    Yuhp Cha Ki Valued Member

    Question for the higher ranks!

    Does anyone still practice the double Joong Bong form seen on the following link:

    [ame=""]YouTube - Gene Gause #14 - Kuk Sool Won's Buddhist Connection[/ame]

    I'm really interested in finding more about this form, if it was a form or just a training drill.

  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Its kinda hard to listen to the narrator speak about Korean monks while the fellas doing the material are wearing KUK SOOL uniforms and executing outlandish spinning, jumping and rolling.

    The staff work is not Korean staff. What is in the clip is flashy garbage put together for sale on the Martial Arts market. Authentic Korean staff work is actually rather utilitarian and "bland". No high kicks, "baton twirling" or interchangeable use of either end of the staff.

    Its not that I mind a bit of eye-candy now and again, but I just wonder whats becoming of authentic Korean practices while swill such as this is being represented as the real thing? FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  3. MasterDunchok

    MasterDunchok Valued Member

    We have two dan bong forms and 5 jun bong forms strung together into a single one. Neither look anything like those.
  4. seo727

    seo727 Valued Member

    What is in the clip is flashy garbage put together for sale on the Martial Arts market. Authentic Korean staff work is actually rather utilitarian and "bland". No high kicks, "baton twirling" or interchangeable use of either end of the staff.

    while swill such as this is being represented as the real thing? FWIW.

    Bruce, I respect your right to state your opinion about history and your perspectives of what's "authentic" or not, but calling the skills and techniques on the video "flashy garbage" and "swill" is really over the top, no? In some ways, I believe that kind of unfiltered critque of other martial arts that you've never trained in and have very little substantive understanding of is as harmful to the future of Korean martial arts as the grandstanding and inaccurate telling of history that you are trying so hard to police. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

    Steve Seo
  5. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    How would we be defining "authentic" for this conversation?
  6. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    My guess would be that the "forms" shown are merely demonstrations of those performers' abilities for the purpose of that film, and were never actual sets. Could be wrong though. I've never encountered them.
  7. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Excuse me, Steve, but I find it odd that a non-Korean spends so much time defending traditions that Koreans spend so much time mucking-up.

    There is absolutely no provenance for the material in the staff form in that clip to connect it to Korean traditions. It is, in fact, total fabrication. The material is NOT nor has it ever been practiced in Buddhist temples nor in the Korean military. Yet, this same material is demonstrated to the narration invoking both Buddhist and Korean traditions attempting to suggest a connection. Now, if you would like to represent that this is stuff your dad or your uncle made-up to have something to sell to romance-minded martial thespians thats a different story. Well and good. But I don't have to train in KSW to identify stuff that ain't what its represented to be.

    In your case, Steve, you more than most people ought be aware of the writings of Prince Sado, of the Korean SIB PAL KI, of the history of the training methodologies passed from the 17th Century to the late 1800-s so I find it hard to understand why you would take umbarage at my identifying this contrived crap for what it is.

    There are, in fact, people who do not know better and are readily sucked into believing pretty much anything that is passed in their direction. I would hate to think that you are either one who is being sucked in or one who promoting this junk.

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I can't speak for others, Monk. For the purposes of my own contribution I hold that "authentic" reflects that the material represented was actually used by the institutions identified and for the purposes stated.

    If somebody invokes the HWA RANG warriors, for instance, I would damn well like to know the reference material or citations that identify what is being done and how. The same goes for the Buddhist monasteries. I spend not a little amount of time searching out resources and I can safely report that the Korean Three Armies cadre did not spend a lot of time teaching corvee troops the JANG BONG equivalent of High School baton twirling, nor was their stick "bi-modal".

    Best Wishes,

  9. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    yet another thread hijacked by bruce.

    i notice how you didn't even try and answer the question posted by yuhp cha ki, if your not gonna answer the op's question, why bother posting?
  10. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    With a surname like Seo, I'd bet that Steve is Korean.

    Bruce, you're not helping our cause any. Step back, take a deep breath. We're in their home, remember? This is an open forum, with many young & beginnning members in KSW. It's one thing to discuss authenticity & historicity and an entirely another thing to be insulting, of their art & it's creators & practitioners. You're not banned on Bullshido if you feel the need to have a place to mock people.

    FWIW, of course.
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    As far as I can see, Matt.....

    a.) I answered the original TS question and

    b.) noone has hijacked anything.

    It is, however, absolutely amazing to me how noone questions the veracity of practically anything posted in the name of some high-placed notable. There are still sites where TKD is traced back to the HWARANG warrior and revisionists report how Japanese swordwork proceeds from emigres from Paekshe. Not that anyone is offering documentation. In fact I saw the other day where some portion of Korean swordwork was attributed to a Dutchman following an encounter where he bested Korean attackers. Surely such an experience would be worthy of mention in THE VERITABLE RECORD OF THE YI, yes? Has anyone found such a citation?

    I'm always open to education, Matt. Suppose you ( or anybody else) advise me on why folks are so reluctant to use sound research methods and critical thinking to verify that what is represented in some way is actually what it is represented to be.

    or......put another way....

    just exactly how stupid do most organizations think their members are?

    Best Wishes,

    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  12. ember

    ember Valued Member

    As a matter of fact, I recognized our Baek Pahl Ki Hyung, Joong Bong Il Hyung in that video. I don't know the double short staff form, but I've seen it and the video looked something like it.
  13. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    In my heart I know you are right, Monk. I also know that there is simply no very nice way to tell someone that what is being presented is simply not what it is represented to be. What I am asking for is the same "truth in advertising" or "truth in lending" that consumers enjoy elsewhere. To the best of my thinking it is not mocking or insulting to use critical thinking, documentation and scholarly logic or to expect it in return.

    Of course, OTOH, there is no discounting the fact that many people prefer fantasy to fact, and if thats what I am banging into, my apologies to everyone here. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

  14. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Right, I recognized those, Ember. I thought the OP was referring to some of the other sets.
  15. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    bruce, the op asked if any1 still practiced the double staff form, not if it's authentic, budhist or anything else.

    yet again you failed to answer the question and took the oppertunity to rant and mock.
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Three things I noticed, Matt.

    First, that you only partially cited the TS.

    (see: "I'm really interested in finding more about this form, if it was a form or just a training drill.")

    Secondly, that you have said nothing about my concerns for critical thinking.

    Third, that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about me which hardly makes you objective in your observations.

    So I will ammend my earlier apology and state, for the record, that if you and your interesting take on intellectual prowess are representative of the readership here, once again I apologize for raining on your collective parade.
    I now return you to your regularly scheduled delusions. :rolleyes:

  17. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    Bruce, did you understand what I said? It's like my grand-daddy said, you'll get more with a smile & a gun than you will with just a gun. Now you've gone and personally insulted Matt after I advised you to take a deep breath & a step back.

    Matt, do we want to get the thread back on track or just berate Bruce? It's just going to be another flame war. Neither of you will convince the other & it will eventually die, until the next thread causes a flare up.

    I'm willing to say I've been an ass in the past, but I will say that there are very few on this forum who have clean noses when it comes to inciting these interesting little battles.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009
  18. psbn matt

    psbn matt great sage = of heaven

    bruce, i would listen to monk if i was you, he seems to be you only friend.
    and monk, getting the thread back on track is the only thing i'm interested in.
  19. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor


    Here's the thing about thread derails & flame wars. A derail only occurs when everyone else jumps on a different topic. Flame wars only occur when two people go after each other.

    Otherwise you're just left with a blip on the radar.

    We don't have to become emotionally involved in what other people say. If Person X posts nothing of value, you don't have to comment on it. Doing otherwise just feeds the troll.

    If Person X posts drivel but one gem in his post, then only respond to the gem.

    I'm saying this for eveyone's benefit & no one in particular.

    If there's one thing I've learned posting at that other place, it's that signal to noise ratio can require filtering, & filtering out the BS (no pun intended) leaves the trolls & flames nowhere to go.

    They either stay on topic or they die.
  20. trailblazer

    trailblazer Valued Member

    I find what Bruce says very interesting. Like listening to someone who is trapped repeating one day, lived in the medieval, middle ages, over and over again.

    I'm curious to know if he sees anything authentic, pertaining to Korean Martial Arts, here? Does it come from the one and only true era of Korean Martial Arts?

    [ame=""]YouTube - Kuk Sool Kwan Ssang Jool Bong Hyung[/ame]
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2009

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