Double grading - any thoughts

Discussion in 'Kickboxing' started by ShinKick, Mar 1, 2006.

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  1. M Lambert

    M Lambert Fitness Consultant

    As seyah said, its good to see you getting what you want out of it. Just a comment if anyone could clear it up bit a Martial Art, is learning to fight, not to dance, thats what Dance classes are for. Now, in my opinion (please prove me wrong) the sequences you learn for a PKA grading (apparently) are more like learning to dance... i highly doubt that in a fight (focus of why MAs exist is fighting) you will be able to execute these sequences without interruption? OK so it teaches technique but so do other types of KB but these do not require a "dance-like" grading do they?

    If anyone could clear this up i'd appreciate it :)
  2. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    I use some of the PKA fight techs in my grading sets as an optional task showing as you say the technical side and as a way for students to exprerience blocking and evassion which sometimes gets overlooked when sparring a bit like one step sparring. Even though it is optional most of my students are presently practicing this area for their up comming grading. i'm all for it as a tool to check students technical abillities in a structured manner. saying it's like a dance though can be used to explain most fight combo's we teach jab, cross, hook, round kick and encourage students to use these in a fight situation the same can be done with elements of the PKA sets.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2006
  3. M Lambert

    M Lambert Fitness Consultant

    Hmm... makes sense, although I rarely overlook blocking... i dont like getting hit so I find it quite important (never seems to work when i need it to though lol) :) cheers!
  4. grasshoper

    grasshoper Valued Member

    A bit unfair. I've just started with PKA, previously having tried a few different arts. The initial sequences are quite short and contain the following elements in various combinations: executing a jab, cross, parrying punches, evading punches, bob and weave, hooks to the body and head, side kicks and front kicks. Basic building blocks that will always be used.

    Breaking down the sequences, they do provide a good base for beginners. Good short combinations learned from the initial sequences are, jab cross, jab cross low kick with rear leg, leg kick block then jab cross. Bob and weave then hook to the body.

    As a complete sequence I would never use them in sparring, but they teach the essential basic techniques, which you can use to develop a good arsenal of simple techniques.

    The combinations taught may not be used in their complete sequence, but then how many people have the skill and speed to execute a combination of more than two or three moves before being countered?

    All of us have a set of combinations memorised but more often than not in a fight you end up improvising depending on how the opponent moves.

    PKA is not the perfect art, it has it's limitations like any other art, but also has a lot to offer if you go in with your eyes open.
  5. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    I don't think Lambert was being funny in his analogy in fact if you think of any combination we learn we have to put it together bit by bit and to be honest when a combination is put together smoothly it looks like poetry ackin to a dance so I don't see Lambert as putting it down but making a fair comparrison.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2006
  6. grasshoper

    grasshoper Valued Member

    Must be our different interpretations of what he said! :) I think the quote below is quite clear in it's negative view of PKA sequences, or maybe I should say sceptical view.

    I ain't taking offence to what Lambert said as he was open enough to ask to be proved wrong.
  7. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    1. i think that double grading is absurd unless the one grading is exceptional
    2. the very fact that loads of people are double grading shows that the standards are not great
    3. still not sparring yet and a green belt???
    hmm kickboxing is based about the ring sport isnt it?

    Its things like the above that give the grading system in kickboxing a bad name
    if the grading system was taken seriously (as opposed to beign a way to make a quick buck)
    then real fighters would take it more seriously

    people like Seyah , JCH and the PKA just serve to make the gradings seem less and less credible(not havin a dig just what ive opbserved)

    I once spoke to a girl who was a yellow belt in kickboxing ansd she was like
    " you dont use boxing glvoes in kickboxing, you only use them bandage things!"

    whats all that about?
    see what i mean?
  8. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    Hang on a minute kickboxingfool if you check my posts out properly you will see that my students are all expected to sparr at gradings and in class and I currently have two students on the WKA England squad team and one working his way up to WAKO Full contact, what are your achievements?

    You say you aint having a dig but by mentioning people by name in this sittuation shows you are having a dig. you obviosly havn't grasped the fact that not everyone wants to fight / sparr but please don't prsume that you can rip them apart because they don't meet with your exectations.

    I will not make anyone do anything they don't want to do (thats called bullying.) If a student refuses to fight at my club then thats their choice but I won't allow you or anyone else demeening what they achieve Students take up the arts for their own personal reasons and as an instructor with over 10 years teaching experience I know that if I push people to far then they leave and a club dosn't run on fresh air.

    Before you start making comparisons on what it is you expect and feel should happen then just stop and think about others instead of what you want. I have two students at my club who love training but have disabilities which stops them sparring so you telling me these two students are crap don't deserve the grades even though they are technicaly very compitant just because they have a real disability that would make it dangerouse to their well being to spar.

    Think about the bigger picture please before jumping in with two feet and don't demeen my teaching without knowing all the facts.

    BTW none of my students ever double grade. but some have skipped a grade due to exceptional abilities.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2006
  9. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    working their way UP to full contact
    WOW woopee
    what an achievement :)
    round of applause!

    you dont know who i am so it would be irrelevant what my achievements are, but suffice it to say i "worked up to FC " as well as low kick a long time ago

    my point is you condone what the PKA are doing with givin away belts and allowing easy double gradings

    maybe youre as corrupt as them?
  10. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    Whatever you have or havn't achieved I will be glad to pass on your applause to my students i'm sure they would feel so much better knowing that a guy of such high stature applaude peoples achievements. :)

    You may scoff at these students achievements but the two on the England squad have only been with me for 8 months and this was only their 2nd ever comp so to get picked is a great achievement for them.

    I won't even justify your synical response with relation to the other student apart from to say I aplaude his dedication and commitment.

    When my students grade the gradings normally take just over 3 hours and each student has to graft and that goes for my beginners who also sparr BTW.

    It was you who said I condone the PKA giving away belts and allowing easy gradings? But please! say how you know the PKA give away belts?
    If you know something I don't know them please enlighten me. :cool:

    And whilst we are on the subject Where have I said I condone such practice? Please point me to a statement where I say that?

    I don't know how the PKA grade their students and I certainly don't know if they "give belts away", you'd better ask JCH that and any other student of the PKA who's achievements you are demeaning with what appears to be unfounded comments.

    My only real comment has been on the use of the fight sets by the PKA, which I personally have no problem with.

    As I said the fight sets help students to show focus blocking evading skills etc just as any other set grading combination are suposed to do.

    I've been teaching for a very long time, and every penny made at my club goes back into the club and my students mate! at present our club funds stand at £1000.00 there about ( not much for the amount of years i've been teaching ), and every penny of that will go into sending my two students to Spain to compeate for their country, any other money we make this year after that will go to putting on an end of year party and presentation. As is usual the funds for that will fall short and most of the money will no doubt come out of my own pocket as usual, :cool: :cool: If that is your idea of a corupt person then we are all in trouble.

    The thread was set up by Shinkick who was concerned about double gradings and the fact that as a green belt he aint sparred. As I said I would never double grade a student It's not something I would personally do. As for not sparring Shinkick was advised on a variety of courses that where open one being to move clubs if he wasn't getting what he needed, but thats a choice he has to make.

    Now because you have not actually understood the points I was attempting to make you felt it was acceptable to tie me with the same brush as others you feel to be disreputable thanks a lot.

    However you gave me a valuable insight into your views on others who don't conform to your own views :cool: and if your views are so blinkered and predjudicial as they appear then ( i'll keep my thoughts on that to myself ) :Angel:
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2006
  11. I don't. There. We all have opinions. I don't particularly agree with belts to be honest, but there we go.

    Do you even know where a green belt fits in to the PKA system? I'm guessing not. Regardless, why should anyone be made to spar at what is effectively intermediate level? If they want their brown and black, they'll have to. End of :)

    Kickboxing is based around learning the punching and kicking techniques that can then be applied to the ring situation.

    No, it's things like your "too deadly hardc0re" posts that give it a bad name. Does everyone at your club spar?

    People don't have to grade. You seem to think someone is making them!

    No they wouldn't, because real fighters are more interested in ... erm ... fighting!

    Thanks. What purpose do you serve?

    Congratulations. When's the medal ceremony?
  12. The internet penis measuring competition just reached round number 2.

    You don't know Seyah either, so why don't you both give us your achievements?

    And my point is... there are more PKA clubs than AFK ones. ;) How many gradings have you observed with the PKA?
  13. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    RE: Seyah
    you contradict yourself too much :p and also are too defensive
    RE: JCH
    youre another one who gets too defensive and you KNOW most of what you say to be wrong and you STILL persist in damaging kickboxings image( even though you dont realise that what you are sayin is damaging)
    I have seen plenty of PKA students walk through my doors to be qualified to make the statement i have made
    go onto AX kickboxing for example and youll see the thread about PKA, most comments are less than flattering re: the PKA's standards

    Green belt is an intermediate grade WHY do they not expect people to be able to spar at that level???

    MCdojoish system
  14. Ok, it's all wrong. I just want to damage kickboxings reputation. Makes sense, huh ;) I'm not being defensive. You're just attacking everything so all I can do is be defensive!Why am I damaging the reputation anyway?

    But I can name lots of PKA people who have done very well in Light contact, semi contact, amateur boxing and full contact. So our virtual penises are the same length !!! ;)

    Oh, AX Kickboxing. Where people don't consider L-con actual kickboxing. I thought you did! How come you don't post there now, anyway? ;)

    Because it's optional. That means they CAN do it but they DON'T HAVE TO. Nobody is stopping them from sparring!!!

    I love you too! Oh, btw... you loved me a few months ago. I recall you started a thread to ask where I was (I'd been away from MAP for nearly 2 weeks!!!). You've changed a bit ;) At the end of the day, I can turn round and say AFK is crap. What would that achieve? NOTHING
  15. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    why do you persist in being a general annoyance just because people dont agree with you or because in this case i believ that the way the PKA do things and the system that you have graduated in is quite simply INCORRECT

    Get real, i have been in this game a lot longer than you have and have seen things and have an udnerstanding of things that your emotional approach to things blinekrs you from doing so.

    Intermediate grades who have never sparred???
    Should never be allowed to exist
    Im firm on that and wont budge no matter how many ******s jump on me for it.

    I have nothign against YOU, however i still stand that the PKA is a mcdojoish system as is GKR (Go kan ryu)
    however there will still be decent ppl in both systems
    even though the chaff outweihs the wheat
  16. How am I being an annoyance? By disagreeing with you? Sorry, but this is an internet forum. If you don't like it, go back to AX.

    I'm going to pretend that the above statement had some relevance to the subject. I don't care how long you've been doing kickboxing for. That's go no implications on this matter.I'm no more blinkered than you (probably less, actually).

    Well you aren;t gonna budge on that, and I'm not going to budge on my opinion. Stalemate.

    Hopefully I won't be branded a pety annoyance for this, but what brings you to that conclusion? Other than this case study.
  17. kickboxingidiot

    kickboxingidiot Valued Member

    1. RE: the " go back to AX" , dont try to act like a gangster it doesnt suit you :p
    you cant make anyone go anywhere, you dont own this forum.
    youre being an annoyance by being spiteful in your tone , I have every right to disagree with you on whatever i please
    and i will exercise that right.
    Its a free country and i pay my taxes like any law abiding citizen and as such exercise my right to free speech

    2. you refuse to lsiten to logic , your idea is " well i did it like this so let people get their gradings like that" type of attitude
    Well im sorry (im not really :p) but I dont think intermediate grades SHOULD have never sparred, im not syaing make them spar every session BUT they should have at least have had a taster even if it means sparring with the instructor who will take it easy on them and give them a chance to move around and throw shots as well as defending controlled shots rather than just mass producing green belts for example.

    You make it seem i have a "hardcore" attitude to kickboxing.
    thats a load of crap we have a lot of people who will NEVER fight
    in fact most of the people who will neevr fight are doign private lessons (under the name personal training)

    the bottom line, if you want to grade to intermedaite level in kickboxing then you should have had some form of udnerstanding in sparring.

    Paul Henesseys syllabus (WAKO-pro &ISKA) the WKA syllabus the ECKA syllabus (dev barrats), Kash Gills IFA syllabus ,...etc are all advocates that sparring is examiend from Orange belt level.

    3. I stand by what i said :cool:
    I have seen a LOT of PKA students coming into my club who after trainign with us have had not a lot positive to say about the pka and what they ahd been taught in the past,..etc

    Hows about we meet up at Jags next show or dean sugdens next show and discuss this face to face rather than keep arguing on the net?
  18. I'm not acting like a gangster. I'm just saying that if you don't like the idea of debate on here, there are plenty more options :) Of course you can disagree with me, but doesn't that mean I can disagree with you aswell? Paying taxes is rather irrelevant on an internet forum anyway :D

    Your idea is "I do it like this, so you should too". This is were we disagree. Don't spit your dummy out! You aren't gonna convince me, and I'm not gonna convince you.

    So we both have lots of people who never fight, and we both have lots of people who fight. I'm happy with that. Why aren't you?

    If you don't want to spar, then you don't have to. That shouldn't hold you back on low-ish grades. If you want to fight, the only belts you want are titles anyway. I think coloured belts are for people who don't really want to fight. Anyone who's spared/fought competitively will say that it's much more fun than a grading anyway. We have people who are only really interested in fighting and as such don't grade. They have the opportunity, but choose not to. As I've said before, I don't believe in belts in kickboxing. They prove very little.

    Fair enough. I advocate that people who want to grade are given one syllabus, and people who want to fight are given another one.

    We've had an awful lot of people who have been to Jags and had not a lot positive to say about it. That isn't some random thing I've posted to prove a point. I'll tell you some of the things that have been said if you want. On the other hand, we've had people tell us that Jags is better. Different people like different things. That's fair enough!

    Ok, but seeing as we're sitting here on the net with (presumedly) nothing better to do at 1:45AM, we might as well continue :)
  19. seyah

    seyah Valued Member

    I don't think I contridict myself I just get both sides of a debate mixed up in my head I agre with bits and I disagree with other bits but I don't see where I have contridicted myself on this thread point it out and I'll clarify my thinking to you, as what I meen to say don't always come out as I intended.
    :) :) :)

    And BTW I don't get to defencive :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: Ok I do :) :) :) but only because I know that when i'm teaching it is all in good faith and for the love of what I do and I feel I have to protect that side of my life. because their is always some t****r who just wants to try and pull me down to make themselves feel better ( violins comming out ) :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
    I have a number of achievements thank you for asking i'm dan graded in a number of styles and have been involved in many competitions with placings and wins in too many to mention I run a small but successful club as well.

    I unfortunatly aint been able to compeate in Full contact or boxing legitimatly due to a sight defect however (I say lagitimatly wink wink) lets just say I've won some I've lost some.

    But i'm still a good looking sod :love: :love: :love:

    BTW I'm 41 today ( happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me, happy birthday, happy birthday, happy birthday to me!!!!!!!.)

    Oh and I once played a jack in a box when I was four in our school play if that counts?

    I don't pretend to be something i'm not unlike many others in the martial arts but I turn out well rounded students and and I am proud of all of them and thats all the achievements I need at present.

    I don't know how the PKA grade apart from the Grading sets I got from you JCH and as you know I have incorperated them into my grading system as I feel they are a valuable tool.

    I hope for love and joy in the world an peace amongst men and a good old bust up. :D :D :D Anyway as the PKA aint got nothing to do with me I think i'll just bow out and leave you guys to your discussions.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2006
  20. It's got nothing to do with him either, but there you go :rolleyes:

    Unless having an A and a K in his clubs name counts.
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