Does soke know Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by hendry, Feb 21, 2008.

  1. hendry

    hendry Valued Member

    How about Yagyu Shinkage Ryu? Does Hatsumi Sensei have any connection with this ryuha?

    In his book Japanese Sword Fighting (http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Sword-Fighting-Secrets-Samurai/dp/4770021984) he covers some techniques of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu.

    Did he learn this ryuha?

    It may be interesting to find out which ryuha he does know in addition to the 9 official ones in the Bujinkan. Certainly Asayama Ichiden Ryu would be one of them.
     
  2. bdstexas

    bdstexas Valued Member


    It is quite simple and there is no need to even ask Hatsumi. Like Mr. Sharples, I am connected to high ranking people that DO know Katori Shinto Ryu and they themselves can speak of it.

    Has Hatsumi ever been a student of TSKSR?

    NO.

    Has Hatsumi ever taken keppan?

    NO.

    Therefore Hatsumi knows about as much as TSKSR as anyone else that may have picked up some of their books which isn't much. Nothing more. Any claims contrary to this are fraud.
     
  3. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    Hi

    people aks me why i rarely if ever post on this forum, this threa dalone is a classic example of why I and severla others who used to dont post her any more.

    Its full of nothing more than insulting between people who are too cowardly to do it face to face if they meet and a comlete waste of the internet.

    Out of all the posts only a few had anything to do with the thread its self

    the moderators should be ashamed of themselevs for allowing all this behaviour to continue.

    As to this thread.

    i think whats the issue here is a little mistaken. I checked years ago with soe sources in Japan and the answer I got back was that hatsumi ha dnot studied katori shinto ryu and that he in fact had a very old and rare KSR makimono in his private collection.

    Moderators start to moderate
    posters - grow up and stop your inane childish bitching
     
  4. SWEHurricane

    SWEHurricane Valued Ninjer

    Just as you say, you don't post here that often. I might be wrong, but I think you are going to far when you are insulting the moderators.

    From what I have seen, the mods do what they can. It's a hard job that they don't even get paid for. And this thread is a fine example of that. You should of seen the rubbish that was going on before the mods started cleaning up.

    I agree that there is alot of crap going on. But it's only natural that people go off topic. Sometimes it can ruin a thread, but this thread started with a statement that was perhaps written in a bad (unclear) way. And the original question has been answered.

    This forum isn't perfect, but it is the best one I have found on the net. Underneath all the bad stuff that is written you can also find alot of interesting stuff, like the part of your post that was on topic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2008
  5. Nii

    Nii Valued Member

    Don't dojo keep lists of their students? That's the best way to check if someone has been taught in the ryu or not. I recall reading that Morihei Ueshiba's name was on the wall of the Sugino-sensei's Yuishinkan dojo...
     
  6. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    Hi SWEHurricane
    Point taken

    your original post claimed I was hostile I see you have edited it out now

    No hostility was intended in any way I was making a valid post.

    This section of MAP has a history of threads being allowed to be over run and insults from one person to the other being allowed

    this thread is just one example of the thread being allowed to drift off etc .

    at least in my post I also added some info
     
  7. bujingodai

    bujingodai Retired Supporter



    Just speaking as the only mod on this board currently specifically for Ninjutsu. When I get up in the morn, I have about 13 reported posts, I do my best to fly thru them prior to going to work or dealing with family things.
    I am sorry if I can't deal with it as fast as those who wish to sling the poop work. I have locked this thread prior to sweep out and have removed about 30 posts to that degree. I am far from being ashamed of myself.
    When you mod too much you get crap, when you mod liberally you get crap and when you see where a thread might go same thing. Everyone has an opinion.

    I will agree with you on the matter that the forum manners have gone straight to hell. There doesn't seem to be a happy medium.
    you'd be suprised what gets cleaned up prior to others coming on and slewing insults again.

    I'll try a little better next time.

    mind you so should the posters, I agree grow up
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Sugino sensei was of great help to Ueshiba sensei when he was attempting to establish his own art. Suginl sensei opened the first branch dojo of what was to become aikido. I think it was called aiki budo then. O sensei was at the opening of the dojo.

    Sugino sensei WAS a master of katori shinto ryu and in fact used this art and kashima shinto ryu, combining the two and "corrupting" them to produce aragoto sword. Meaning brutal and unsophisticated for Toshiro Mifune to use as his yojimbo character in Kurosawa's movies.

    Many ridiculous claims have been made regarding Ueshiba sensei such as throwing numerous attackers without touching them, exploding the bulbs in camera with his kiai and causing rifles to misfire etc. Kisshomaro Ueshiba and other aikido shihan went as far as to produce articles in aikido journal to refute these saying that O Sensei's achievements needed no embelishment.

    Perhaps this is the same with the claims of Soke's "mastery" of katori shinto ryu.

    Sugino, Mifune and Kurosawa.

    regards koyo
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 25, 2008
  9. poryu

    poryu Valued Member


    Hi

    I will apologise a litle, but I thin that 99% of fault lies with the posters and not the moderators as it is their comments that cause the trouble.

    I once proved that face to face posters are absolute cowards when I actualy met someone by chance form overseas who had been insultive to me on a forum. the sheer shock and horror on their face when i confronted them.

    Not only does the poster show their childish and sickly pathetic behaviour, but their out right general cowardice (as they wouldnt say such things face to face) and their lack of respect for there instructor and organisation.

    I was a moderator and I had a zero tolerance.

    we all (including myself) need to engage brain prior to posting.
     
  10. Nii

    Nii Valued Member

    You managed to meet a random from the internet overseas by chance? There isn't a very large chance of that happening...
     
  11. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    Hi

    Talking of the scrolls Hatsumi sensei own.

    He also owns the oldest known scroll on Japanese gunnery.

    He has collected many scrolls from so many different schools, the collection contains some very old and valuable documents. I was told he studies some fo them with the help of others who can read the old text to help him understand the contents. Just the face value of the comments is not always the facts.

    For example when I was working with a Japanese on the tenchijin translation I have one comment they made for a roll in one of the kata was described in the kanji that had been used.

    The word itself was plain and simple to explain a roll, but the specific kanji denoted how the role was to be done. sort of like a specific terminology.

    Old scrolls are littered with this type of thing and this is one reason I bet he likes to read them - sort of like code breaking
     
  12. poryu

    poryu Valued Member

    Hi

    exactly and it should just be a warning to all of us, if your going to insult abuse and behave in an offensive way towards someone you never know just who may appear at a seminar one day.

    And you may not be lucky enough to get away with a slight telling off, it could turn out a lot worse if you provoke the wrong person in the wrong way. not ever one is placid and easy going as some others.

    The Bujinkan is getting to an age where things will change in the next few years in a huge way, its time for all of us to change our attitude and start showing some respect to each other, especially on the forums.

    Help the moderators by not spamming, abuse or downright childish behaviour.
     
  13. SWEHurricane

    SWEHurricane Valued Ninjer

    Yeah, I re-read my post and saw that it was a poor choice of words. And it's not really my job to "protect" others, like the moderators in this case.

    There's where alot of the problem is, people trying to "protect" others, it's what keeps the trolls going. The moderators can't really run the forums with an iron fist (unless they do CMA, then they have no choice ;) ), it's better if we just ignore bad posts, instead of complaining, imo.
     
  14. hendry

    hendry Valued Member

    That sounds like an assault charge waiting to happen ............ and all the victim needs to do is show the cops the exchange on the forum and there will be evidence of pre-meditation.

    On another note ........... thanks for posting and clearing up the question about Katori Shinto Ryu.
     
  15. CandyCaneShinai

    CandyCaneShinai Valued Member

    I have heard Sensei mention things that were written in the densho of the Katori school, and there is a guy who has been training at the Hombu for a long time (off and on) who is also a member of the Katori school in Japan.
    I don't think I ever heard Sensei say that he studied it, though.
    I can see how someone might be confused about that, if Sensei quoted some old Katori school writings.
    Sensei has studied many things.
     
  16. Katori_jingu

    Katori_jingu New Member

    he couldn't have ever trained in Katori because Otake sensei made it impossible for anyone connected to Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan to train in katori. if you have trained in these styles then otake will deny you the ability to train. so maybe hatsumi did try to learn it and plagiarize it so he and all his disciples were banned idk all I know is they arent allowed in katori
     
  17. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I know of only one person from the Bujinkan trains in Katori Shinto Ryu
    He lives(ed) in Japan and as far as I know no longer trains in the Bujinkan and hasn’t done for many, many years

    To my knowledge Hatsumi-Sensei hasn’t taught anything from KSR and I’ve never heard him mention it other than in passing in the way he references other koryu
    The only other ryuha that Hatsumi-Sensei has taught in the past are Asayama Ichiden Ryu and Bokuden Ryu. I believe he has menkyo kaiden in these and he always attributes the techniques to the source when teaching formally
     
  18. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    Ditto. I have never heard Hatsumi claim anything about KSR in either video or print, except for maybe in his book Japanese swordfighting, and even then only in passing. He is already headmaster of two verified Koryu traditions, so why would he bother claiming KSR? The only other reason why he might mention KSR would be because of its (anti)Ninjutsu auxiliary teachings that in KSR which I am given to believe is handed out very rarely.
     

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