Does ninjutsu work?

Also I agree that Nagato beating you does little but show that Nagato is a badass

 

So an 81 year old man is invincible in an unarmed real fight, but eminently beatable in an MMA match? Intriguing. Which particular rule(s) robs him of all his powers? If they just went bare knuckle to the death with no rules would that still be "too controlled" for them to manifest themselves?

 

Does Ninjutsu work?

Usually when something doesn't work it fades away and is forgotten. Historically it would appear that Ninjutsu worked for the purpose it was intended for in feudal Japan, so does it work in contemporary times?

Well I think this all comes down to the practitioner, and the amount of time they put into their training. I believe one of Ninjutsu's strengths is its willingness to incorporate other styles into it. I have often seen Hatsumi quoted as saying 'use whatever works' and at my old Dojo, former students of Karate, BJJ and Judo have all been encouraged to meld what they have been taught into the syllabus.

During a sparing session with a much higher grade than me, I would often adapt a technique in order to gain an advantage. This person then went to the teacher to complain that I wasn't 'doing it right'. To which the teacher replied 'If you was on the street, people are not going to conform to your rules or expectations, if it works, it works.'

There is no MA in the world that is perfect which is why I feel cross training if very important (something encouraged in Ninjutsu).

So yes it works, if you are skilled enough to use it.

Ninjutsu got a bit of a bad name a few decades ago when it became a fad (along with throwing stars) and there are many silly people like Ashida Kim who continue to give the art a bad name.

 

Not what I said

90 yr old Helio would have been creamed in MMA - but put him in a different setting with different paradigms and he would excel. Would you say he or the art he does is ineffective?

Of course Helio can do the "dirty stuff" because he can do the "clean stuff" - just like Hatsumi.

 

The "paradigm" where he excelled at that age was teaching to subsequent generations, not fighting with no rules.

I'm not saying Hatsumi's inability to beat down people a third of his age proves the Buj doesn't work. I'm just pointing out the absurdity of the claim.

Mind you, people solidly in contact with reality tend to be better at fighting, so maybe it is an indicator. That said, over on Judoforum you can learn that Mifune's uke's jumping for him when we he was ancient proves he'd ascended to Super Saiyan.

What?

 

I'm reminded of hearing about a WWII commando, then in his 70s, who was attacked by a "fighting man" yob in his 20s, at a pub I used to frequent. The younger guy tried to punch him in the head, and had his wrist mangled, a knee in the ghoulies, and his nose broken by the old guy's head, all pretty much in one move.

Don't underestimate the old guys.

 

I have never really understood that bickering that sometimes occurs between different MA, particularly when it comes to 'which is better'.

The whole idea of Hatsumi vs (whoever) smacks of the whole 'my dad is bigger than your dad' argument from the playground.

I think that anyone who uses their Martial Art as some kind of 'badge' or to stroke their own ego (that isn't directed at you by the way pointy) is missing the whole point of what MA is meant to teach us.

 

What is MA meant to teach?

 

Does ninjutsu work?

Yes

But not for people who are crap.

Are we done?

 

I would really like to hear your thoughts on why many self-proclaimed students of Nagato insist on standing upright with stiff legs and moving their arms around.

 

Yes it "works", yes it has been used outside of "promotional videos". Even if I knew nothing about martial arts or specifically ninjutsu, I would assume that out of all those practicing around the world at least 1 of those people may actually have a practical use for it and have used it. Having said that, I can tell you that people do and have, although I am just a person hiding behind a screen so I suggest going by probabilities rather than listening to me.

Some teachers teach real, practical, "self defense". Some of those do better jobs than others. Some teachers don't even think of it that way. Some people do it just for fun. That shouldn't be a big surprise. People are different and have individual motivations.

Two points I would like to add:
1) A lot of physical activity gives you general skills/attributes that can help you to survive danger. Even activities that are fun. So really teaching "self defense" is more of a continuum than an on/off switch.

2) Ninjutsu is a very, very broad term, especially on the internet. And even if you do narrow it down to a specific organization there are always individual differences. So as much as you might wish to put it in a box and label it "Ninja stuff", you just have to leave it scattered to the four winds. I know, it drives the OCD folks nuts!

 

Nope, that will work just fine. Young guy dies surprisingly fast.

Just my personal opinion btw. Based on weighing up probability of a man even in his golden years ( similar to takamatsu - hatsumi in the beginning ) spending a lifetime studying how to kill in the fastest, effortless and quickest way possible, against a fine, fit athlete with a few years of tough competition experiance, used to doing 'x' when opponent does 'y' and tapping if he gets it wrong.
( not any particular person btw, as example only)

If takamatsu couldn't whip the ass of a young fit hatsumi, a 4 th Dan judo champ, easily and obviously, do you think hatsumi would have been so inspired to be his student ?
" i'll need to be gentle with this old bloke, but I think he knows some sick moves, on that I'll dedicate my life to his arts"

 

He's messed me up proper a few times. I wore the marks for weeks.

It's not that he outfights you, is that you just have no idea what happened and why.

The Booj is not this soft thing that people think. Though maybe some only see that soft stuff for various reasons?

Obviously some people make it that stuff. Those who can't....etc

The soft is the goal maybe but too many people try to run before they can walk.

 

Absolutely.

 

I'm gonna responses to various replies in one post to save space.

Gregtca wrote:

I never give out my real birthday to various websites when registering. It's a privacy thing. I'm actually 48. Not sure how those numbers got mixed up though.

Gapjumper wrote:

I believe it was just being instituted as Bujinkan, or recently had been, but no one used that name back then really. A lot of it was still going through Stephen Hayes at Shadows of Iga. We had to send payment for ranks through Shadows of Iga.

Dean Winchester wrote:

No, but it does present the "all ninjas are compliant wussies" crowd a chance to put up or shut up. I mean, they are the ones insisting that Hatsumi is fake and all that.

You're overlooking the obvious - why would I care to "deal with them"? I frankly don't give a damn what they think. All I'm saying is that they are claiming that Hatsumi can't do what he claims he can, so they should just go find out for sure. Prove the guy wrong.

I knew plenty of people in this art that handle themselves quite well. It's not a problem for me or others.

Not sure what you mean there. Do you mean referring to them in reference to the MMA crowd? All I'm saying is that if I were a MMA guy and I had an almost pathological hatred for "ninjers", and I believed Hatsumi was a fake, I would simply go challenge him and kick his ass and become world famous. I mean, why not? But they don't. I wonder why? What do they have to lose?

Again, why? I don't care what someone else thinks. My point is (as always) simply that there are people out there who insist that ninjutsu is fake, that Hatsumi is a fake, that he and the shihan can't fight. And they harp on it constantly. It shows a psychological obsession with it. So they should work it out. As in go challenge them.

It's not daft. If someone claims that Hatsumi and his shihan are fake, and if they have a seeming obsession with dissing them, then they should just go prove themselves. Look, I don't go to boxing forums or tae kwon do forums or JKD forums and claim that their arts don't work or that their master instructors are fake, with compliant ukes. If I felt that, I would simply go to one of their schools, issue a challenge, and be done with it. My point being that after the first 60 times someone claims "Hatsumi is fake", I get tired of hearing them drone on, so my natural response is "go get it off your chest - go challenge him and find out".

Someone should be doing what about what?

No, being compliant is falling down when a wrist lock is applied ineffectively. Being resistant is standing there not letting it take you down. I'm referring to this happening while learning the techniques, not in a sparring sense. The teacher demonstrates and says "do it like this". The uke is expected not to just go along with it unless it is being applied properly and he is forced to react. Of course, when doing more active combat oriented training (sparring, etc), the uke doesn't just stand there. He attacks.

Obviously. My point is that it wasn't all fluffy cotton and compliance training. We trained in the real world under real conditions. And injuries were common. We trained hard.

Learning how to hit the ground without getting hurt is stupid? That's news to me. We were expected to be able to roll on any surface. And over time, we were able to.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

I don't have time to argue semantics. All I'm saying is that the training was definitely not compliant. There were no slow motion, miles-long-telegraphed lunge punches for example. If someone new tried that, we'd simply grab his hand, stop him and say "no, punch me for real".

A result of failure? I'm missing something there. A lot of the higher level training at the time consisted of living in a way that does not generate strife or the need to fight. However, in the real world stuff happens, and sometimes you don't have that option.

As I said, I'm not the one with the obsession with "proving" things. I'm simply addressing those who incessantly insist that Hatsumi/ninjutsu/Bujinkan is fake. Go prove it. The people making the claims are the ones who need proof, in a psychological context. I suspect that such need often stems from lack of self esteem or confidence.

Chadderz wrote:

It would amount to putting your money where your mouth is. You can't kick Hatsumi's ass. I don't care how old he is. And what is this "fair fight" nonsense? Do you expect him to put on boxing gloves and get in a ring with you, with a referee? If you believe you can kick his ass, just challenge him to a one-on-one, hand-to-hand battle. I'm sure he'd honor your request and not use weapons.

Then stop complaining, because I never said ninjutsu is "better for self defense" (better than what?) or that it doesn't work in a cage.

Kagete wrote:

I don't know, because I haven't seen them. You use the word "self proclaimed", which means maybe they aren't really students of Nagato.

 

Ok, that was a lot of quoting and specifics. Now for my overall response.

First, I have noticed something interesting - in my experience it is usually the MMA types who are constantly picking on other arts, and when I say "other arts" I mean usually ninjutsu (Bujinkan mainly). I rarely if ever see a JKD guy or an aikido guy go ranting away about "ninjers" and making a lot of barely funny insults, or denigrating their grandmasters. Maybe that's due to the inherent competitive, macho nature of MMA people in general, I don't know. But I do find it odd that they never rip on tae kwon do, for example, or other arts. It's almost always ninjutsu.

After more than 30 years of ninjutsu training being available in the USA, I would think that if it "doesn't work", then no one would be practicing it anymore.

As for the arts themselves, didn't Bruce Lee settle the argument of which art is best? I remember being at a seminar with Dan Inosanto, who told us stories about how Bruce Lee would ask "which is better - karate or boxing?" and when the person said "boxing", he would use karate to kick the boxer's ass. And when the answer was "karate", he would use boxing to kick the karateka's ass. It's up to the person, not the art. In every art you have losers who play at it, you have mildly competent practitioners, you have talented practitioners, and you have the exceptional ones as well.

I had a friend who was a state champion wrestler, and a decent boxer. He'd seen his share of street fights as well. Since he was half my age, he thought he could "take me". So I let him go for it. He was very upset that nothing he did worked, that I could counter every move he made and do whatever I wanted to him, at will. On the other hand, I am acquainted with a guy who does kung-fu and Taoist stuff, and I have only one technique to use on him - run the hell away as fast as I can!

The friend who was the wrestler one day went into a rage and was trying to get at another friend of mine who was no match for him. He'd always thought that in a "real" confrontation between us (ie not sporting, but a real fight), the outcome would be different. Instead, he not only couldn't get past me, he also could not mount an effective attack either. I manhandled him. When I tired of being nice, I simply took him to the ground, wrapped him up in a sleeper hold and told him "You have 5 seconds to calm down, otherwise you'll be sleeping for a bit". He surrendered. So yeah, ninjutsu works.

And before the 'roided up fight fans go berserk with challenges to "prove" myself , I will remind you that I am not saying I'm some major bad ass. I know far too many people who can whup my ass faster than I care to admit. I'm simply saying that for me at least, ninjutsu has been proven to work, and work well, in everything from minor confrontations to unarmed combat against a knife-wielding person on a psychotic rage. I'm sure plenty of JKD, aikido, MMA, and other martial artists can say the same about their particular art or arts.

I'll also bring up the question no one else ever seems to bring up. To those of you who constantly denigrate Bujinkan and its practitioners - why do you do it? Why are you so obsessed with what others are doing? If the "silly ninjers" are sneaking around in black costumes and doing slow-motion, uke-compliant training, why do you care? Why does that bother you so much? Why do you spend time coming to their forums to argue about it and insult them? And if the "ninjers" truly are that inept, isn't that no different than insulting athletes in the Special Olympics? Do your teachers approve of you being so disrespectful towards others? And if so, what does that say about them?

Frankly, I left behind that whole silly "my art can kick your art's ass" back in grade school. How is is that so many people have not likewise managed to do so?

Finally, on a more mischievous note, have you ever thought about the idea that maybe all those "ninjer" videos of compliant ukes and slow-motion, telegraphed attacks are simply "ninjer" psychological warfare being used against you so that if you do meet one of those poor, pathetic Bujinkan "ninjers" one day in a combat-oriented situation, you might not take them seriously, and therefore drop your guard and get sloppy, thus leading to your loss in the combat? Might that not be a valid tactic for "ninjers"? :evil::hat:

 

Burton Richardson goes off on a tangent every now and then.

Not true. Silat gets just as much flak if not more.

Doesn't prove anything.

No he didn't. He didn't encounter anywhere near as much qualified resistance as people that came both before and after him.

And when I said "self-proclaimed", I'm referring to the fact that I've never personally heard Nagato refer to them as their students. But they're big names.

 

I would smash him. Although I agree with you. In a fair fight, he is an old man who does not train for the environment of a one-on-one skilled fighter and he would get smashed. This is not a jib at Hatsumi at all, the man is legendary. If I sent him a request to fight to the death, it's more likely he would write an acceptance letter and the postman who gave me the mail would kill me. That's how Ninjutsu works

 

He was half your age.... Ten?

 

...Just stop.