Does ninjutsu work?

I'm sorry if this sounds insulting, I don't mean it like that at all. It's just that I don't think I've ever heard a reference to the practicality of ninjutsu outside of a promotional video. So I'm just wondering, does ninjutsu teach real, practical, self defense? Or is it just a fun thing to do?

 

No it doesn't, IMO, teach real, practical, self defence.


But then it's not supposed to.


Can it be used for real, practical, self defence? Sure.

 

You might want to clarify what you mean by real, practical, self defence.


Your definition and that of others may differ.

 

Good point. What I mean is, using what you learn in ninjutsu could you defend yourself significantly better than if you where untrained? Could you escape holds? Punch harder? Kick better? Throw your opponent?

 

The techniques are there. Whether a person is capable of using them is another matter.

 

It's an art born in warfare, with the goal of fighting and surviving with the utmost efficiency and effectiveness in movement, with and against any kind of weapon or attack. Whether you devote yourself enough and dig deep enough to reach that level is another question. It has survived several hundreds of years of war and life-threatening situations, and you cannot really reduce it to the bad stuff you see on the internet and in most dojos worldwide. IMHO.

 

On a more specific note, I've heard reference to the way ninjutsu people punch being different than karate. And from demonstration all videos it is very different (the word limp comes to mind). What are the mechanics taught for punching?

 

A body structure that is the same whether you are unarmed or using weapons like spear, staff, sword, etc. A movement that allows efficiency and effectiveness when practiced and performed correctly. But I don't think the mechanics can be explained... they have to be experienced and practiced.

 

There is a lot of talk about the basic punch called the Tsuki and I think you could find it by searching this sub forum.

In a nutshell, no it is not taught as a limp punch (the word 'that would be stupid' comes to mind).

First off, the big difference between what you see in Karate/Boxing is the deadly Ninja punch does not twist the wrist/arm so the knuckles are up - on a right punch the knuckles will stick out to the right.

A couple of reasons:

The arts are tied into weapons techniques and jujutsu, they aren't a pure striking art, so the style of punch takes into account techniques to be taught off that, and how you can use the punch in technique.

The biomechanics of the punch are intended to carry force from the feet through to the hands with the most direct lines as possible - this is a structural thing, twisted joints don't hold force as well. Many Ninja think that this is the most powerful way to punch, but I personally think it is more a case of efficient and stable for the next move.

There are all sorts of hand strikes other than Tsuki including the deadly Judy Chop (shuto) and pokes that could incapacitate a bear of a man (boshi ken) or indeed a bear.

Much better in a real fight than all that hopping about like they do in Karate!

 

Limp?
Its got to be a wind up.Any art looks limp if its not done properly.Or if its the intention.

 

not sure that is fair on Karate Matt.

 

Also, it might help to understand that in the videos you saw of the limp punch it wasn't demonstrating a punch it was demonstrating a technique on the person in punching position. They might then keep the arm very loose in order to show the directions that they are being moved in so the person who is watching can try to emulate it.

Good Uke should not punch in this way as it creates a false sense of achievement in the Tori (unless that is the goal as we all like to feel good) but sometimes, especially when demonstrated by a senior teacher it is put out there to play with.

Look at it not as a punch in these cases, but a way of starting a jujutsu move from standing taking into account that arm.

Poor training habits can come from this, but we have all been told this and therefore it is our responsibility to strike correctly as Uke, the balance is creating a strike that is honest, but still allowing Tori to feel through the technique.

 

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114366

 

Seems to me that it's like this:

1) The techniques upon which Ninpo/taijutsu/ninjutsu/whatever (probably, most specifically the bujinkan) is based, are valid, but you will not be directly taught how to use them. Nor will you be provided with an environment within which you will be able to test actually using them. This inability to teach or use said techniques will not stop you being awarded rank in the art.

2) This issue leads to the production of teachers who can't fight or teach effectively and the problem spreads.

3) the art becomes almost entirely theory. Where upon it becomes the responsibility of the student to test and learn away from the org in order to actual develop... accept cross training is frowned upon.

4) Nobody who studies Taijutsu can fight well using Taijutsu unless they are in a violent profession/life style and/or cross train in environments where they can test it. Whether they know that or not depends on those same criteria.

5) Oh and Hatsumi is coddled old man who is protected from reality by the sycophancy of his students trololololol

Opinions?

 

I would suggest that all arts are at risk of being incestuous in their nature, if you don't get out into a different environment you will never know the limitations of your training.

There are a number of people who do teach in the Bujinkan that are useless as you say, and they more often than not create useless students, until said student goes out into a different environment and tests themselves. I have met many that refuse to cross train (because I imagine, it will burst their bubble).

There is never been any problems with cross training, it is neither encouraged or discouraged - but when discussed I have always been told to go try it out if I like (by Japanese teachers)

Yes, Hatsumi is a coddled old man, no different from Helio or any other great that is coming to his twilight years and has given a lot of time and effort to the training over the years.

 

I think it's on a spectrum. But it's true enough in those broad terms.

I'm not trying to call all the practitioners useless, but from the words of almost every ninjutsu practitioner on the forum and from the words of Kacem from the videos big will posted in the other thread, teaching in the bujinkan specifically is not set up in a way that imparts skill without serious adaptation from the student. Is that accurate? If so that goes someway to answering the OP.

I was under the impression that cross-training was forbidden in the xkans explicitly after shodan? If that's mistaken then I take it back no question.

Haha for sure . I was clearly baiting but I think with regards to Helio he at least proved his worth and what he taught until his death was the same as what he demonstrably used and others taught and used. You can see him and others implementing what he shows exactly as it's shown. You cannot say the same for Hatsumi at all. And some of his demos beggar belief. I have no stake in the Gracies either

 

In a fight to the death I put Helio to win eery time!

 

Even now??

 

I am glad I didn't say that.
Seems about right though

 

Mike,no offense meant,but you are ruthless.