does height really matter?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by yuen, Jul 17, 2011.


  1. It was more a guess than a conclusion Moosey, but yes, certainly:

    It is my contention that heavier contact gives the advantage to the side that can deliver the largest impact, hence my guess that Fred practices a style with little or no impact.
    Grabbing and checking would nullify most of a speed or mobility advantage in favor of the stronger (taller?) opponent.


    Osu!
     
  2. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    OK, now I understand, cheers!
     
  3. fredwrite

    fredwrite New Member

    I practice Shorin-ryu. And yes, we fight point karate in tournaments, so, they keep it light. But guys still like to charge in to get points. That side kick can knock a charging guy backward, and it's perfectly okay.

    I've been nearly knocked out by legal strikes in point karate. It's just one of those things. They are looking for finesse not for gentleness.
     
  4. yuen

    yuen Valued Member

    so what most of you are saying, when it comes to fighting, height does matter at the end of the day? :(
     
  5. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    that it matters doesn't mean that it is the most important factor.
     
  6. Seventh

    Seventh Super Sexy Sushi Time

    Between two individuals of the same skill height and size is a sizable (pardon the pun) factor. However, between two individuals with the larger being less skill, height and size play less and less of a role, and becomes lesser with the increase of skill and experience of the smaller individual, IMO.
     
  7. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    Also it varies between styles. Strikers need to be tall as Master Betty outlined, grapplers, not so much. I know the people who give me the most trouble are the short fireplug types...
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Generally, I see aggression making more of a difference than size. The more aggressive the more chance of coming out on top.

    However, more aggression generally means more speed and then that means more likely to get gassed out quicker. I see larger fighters against smaller, the smaller come out and has a big advantage with aggression but if they do not have the experience, conditioning, and technical skills to finish off the larger opponent, I see the larger opponents coming out on top simply because they can conserve energy better.

    Once anyone gets passed the advantages of aggression, then you see where the technical fighters gain the advantage as the opponent gets gassed out.

    That's a good point.

    I had some theories related to height and training. There is a saying that developing good long range strikes (mostly the straight-line punches and kicks) will help you keep range and stay out of clinching and grappling. For a very tall person, they naturally will have reach over many shorter people and they as a result don't really have a need to develop good long range striking... in fact, their mid-ranged strikes end up being used for long range because that is all that is needed to have a reach advantage over a smaller person.

    What this means is that a smaller person could effectively have more reach than a taller person when the smaller person develops really good long range striking power and if the taller person is depending on using mid-ranged striking to keep distance (having neglected developing good long range striking themselves).

    Now let's take the opposite situation with grappling. With grappling you don't want space because space creates openings for counters... so naturally, a smaller person is going to be tighter in when grappling. Sometimes, however, a smaller person is so naturally able to keep in close in that they really don't work on it.

    What this means is that a taller person could have much better close in grappling or clinching than a shorter person simply when the taller person really works hard on it and the shorter person takes it for granted.

    So anyway, height advantage can be taken for granted and thus certain skills are not developed as well as they could be for exploiting advantages of reach. Also, advantages of being close in for grappling with shorter people can be taken for granted and thus certain skill are not developed as well as they could be for exploiting close in fighting.

    IMHO.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2011
  9. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    the idea "more aggression means more likely winner" simply shows a lack of experience. The evidence is plastered all over fight sports to see for those without the experience to see it for themselves. Hatton vs Mayweather for example. No doubt who was more aggressive. Look who got KTFO.

    bottom line is, yes, height is an advantage. Being able to hit your opponent when he's still too far away to hit you is an advantage.
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes most of the fights I'm talking about are between lesser experienced fighters. Guys with only a few years training or maybe no formal training at all.

    If a fighter has the technical skills and experience, they can beat a more aggressive fighter... that was a large point of my post. Mostly, larger fighters against smaller opponents have a lot more ways to conserve energy if they are smart about it.

    However, if a fighter can't deal with an all out aggressive opponent, they will get KTFO.
     
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think it is more that height matters more at the beginning of the day but not as much at the end of the day.

    Ignoring technical skill and experience for a moment to keep MB from busting a gasket. :p

    The ability to explode on the enemy, go from zero to 100% in an instant... or what many call aggression, is going to be a big advantage in a fight. What's the difference between a real fight or a ring fight compared to sparring? A real fight, a ring fight, under fire etc. is going to be a lot faster. The body is on high alert and the mind filters out distractions, some people say they see things in slow motion. The point is that things happen fast.

    Now what is height going to do? It is going to give an advantage in position... like if your army is on top of a hill and the enemy is down the hill. There is a reason it is called a height advantage. The smaller person is going to have to work a lot harder to gain a superior position than the larger, taller person. This is even true in grappling. The larger, taller person is almost always going to get top position and the smaller person will be working from the bottom.

    What can you do about it if you are the smaller person? You can fight from a disadvantaged position and use speed and power to defeat the larger opponent. This is exploding on the opponent. The big problem is that when you are very aggressive, you leave yourself open AND you can only keep it up so long before you tire out. It can go either way. I've seen smaller opponents defeat larger opponents by exploding on them and knocking them out. I've also seen smaller opponents explode and unable to keep it up, get gassed out, then end up on the bottom or getting punched out.

    Then what can a smaller person do besides all out aggression? The smaller person will have to pace themselves and get the larger person to make mistakes. The smaller person can explode on the opponent, do damage, and then disengage. Disengage does not mean back away, it means angle off, take the backside, get inside... minimum movement but maximum mobility. Mobility will be the key. Get the larger person to expend their energy instead of the other way around.

    What targets are good for a smaller person to attack. Pretty much whatever good targets are available. The difference is that a smaller person needs to develop power strikes. A larger person might be able to just swing the arm and hit the smaller person and hurt them. Or another way to think about it, a smaller person has to have power and hit the right places, a much bigger opponent could hit you anywhere, like the arm, and hurt you.

    What might I recommend, then? Power strikes to the jawline like overhand rights, spinning back fists, and kicks to the legs. Also, any power long range strike that can catch the larger opponent by surprise like back kicks and long range power punches. While you are doing this, you need to be a hard to hit target, so got to have good head movement and cover up, don't drop the hands.

    What as a smaller person do I need to worry about? Heck if I know, that depends on the situation. However, I can say that a taller and larger person can conserve energy by becoming a sniper and keeping their range with long ranged strikes. What is of concern is a larger person striking to the nose and eye with jabs and crosses, as well as powerful kicks to the legs... the larger person can hit the same spots repeatedly. For instance just work the leg kicks to the same spot... or just work the punches to the same spot on the nose and eyes of the opponent. After the smaller person can't walk or can't see anymore, the fight is over.

    What is a situation where height/being larger is a disadvantage? Ignoring closed in spaces such as a phone booth... obviously environment is a big factor... I would say that larger people tend to get gassed easier because they have to expend more energy to move. A smart fighter has the ability to explode on the opponent, but also has the technical skill and experience to conserve energy... make the opponent do most of the work. However, sometimes being bigger means you believe you can overpower the opponent. I've seen smaller fighters able to stay relaxed and hard to hit, use mobility, and get the larger opponent to overextend and expend energy. When the larger fighter gets gassed, just like everyone, they are at a disadvantage against a much more fresh opponent.

    IMHO.
     

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