Do you think TKD can help you win mma tournaments or just a regular fight?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Marc936, Feb 8, 2006.

  1. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    The problem with this discussion is that the person who asked that initial question didn't really clarify it that well. What sort of TKD training is he talking about? Olympic TKD? Traditional 1950s TKD? Whatever method Juras uses to train his TKD? It comes down to purpose. If you train TKD for any other purpose other than MMA then no it won't be very useful.
     
  2. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    And do try to turn down the tone a little, Mjelva, this isn't Bullshido.net.

    Also, how long have you been doing BJJ?
     
  3. I'd just like to point out, you didn't actually respond to the bulk of my message on the last page. I want your opinion about what you think of correctly used TKD.
     
  4. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    No it's not. Not in Pride it isn't. I don't think you've watched a whole lot of MMA.
    Here's some pictures from Wanderlei Silva vs. Kazushi Sakuraba.
    Pride has no three-point rule such as the UFC does (meaning you can't kick your opponent if he has more than three points in the ground, like two feet and one hand), and KO by soccer kicks to the head or stomps aren't that unusual.
    By the way, how exactly are you gonna kick me while I'm applying an armbar to you?
    Have you really trained MMA?

    Half a year. I'm not that good, but I'm coming along nicely.

    Oh, sorry. Well, I think taekwondo, like any system, can work as a basis.
    Now, to be blunt, from what I've seen and more importantly felt, none of the techniques in taekwondo are optimal for knocking out your opponent.
    Now, if you do spar, with the intention of causing damage, not scoring points for touch hits (that's not to say you should be trying to hurt your sparring partners, but rather that you'd spar in the same manner as you'd fight), that eventually will solve itself. If that's what you mean by correctly used taekwondo, I agree it can work.
    However, seeing as you're not likely to find many taekwondo practitioners really interested in training in this way, it's my experience that those who do are sooner or later drawn into kickboxing, muay thai or MMA.

    It can be done, obviously. Sanshou is a competitive form of kung fu, which more or less resembles kickboxing. There's nothing stopping taekwondo from doing the same.
     
  5. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    so Mjelva your MA experience is

    1 year TKD
    6 months BJJ
    1 fight in a cage (rabbit pens dont count)

    anything else??

    reason I ask is that for your opinion to have any real validity with me you would need a whole lot more experience to justify your sweeping generalisations and consistent battering of the art.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2006
  6. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    a hell of lot closer to his opponent than that.
     
  7. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    1 year Judo
    1 year taekwondo
    1 year kickboxing
    6 months BJJ
    6 months MMA (the two latter simultaneously, at two different gyms)

    And one cagefight, in-house.

    I don't mind you asking, but I'd prefer if you addressed my arguments themselves, instead of trying to invalidate them by questioning my experience.
     
  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I think that's a fair request.

    My feeling on the whole issue is that TKD (or karate or anything else) isn't designed for MMA so in order for it to be effective in a cage match it needs to be modified to include lots of weight training and submission wrestling in its regime. By the time you've modified these arts to include all of the weights, grappling etc what you're left with will pretty much resemble MMA training. This isn't a bad reflection on the effectiveness of TKD - none of the traditional arts work in MMA without some adaptation (no-one enters MMA having ONLY trained in Muay Thai or ONLY groundfighting). BUT (and I think this is something that most arguments of this nature forget) this doesn't make any of the traditional arts ineffective in self defence. People DO defeat attackers using TKD, karate, judo, jiujutsu, muay thai etc etc

    Until the day that every street is populated by iron-pumping, steroid-swilling, full-time-training martial arts experts then there is absolutely zero need to train to fight off these people if you're training for self defence. To be honest, most full time MMAers are way too busy to go around mugging people anyway.

    So maybe someone who trains a few nights a week in TKD isn't gonna be able to submit a big-ass MMA professional - but are you ever going to need to? I'm personally happy to admit that most of those guys would kick my ass - I plan to negate this issue by never picking a fight with them. Problem solved.
     
  9. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    why bother trying to address your arguments, you clearly think TKD is all but useless as a combatitive martial arts. However I would be more inclined to listen to your arguments if you were talking from a position of experience. i.e. you had attained a decent proficiency in any of the arts you have attempted. If you base your experience on the TKD grading system (WTF) you are the equivalent of green belt in 3 martial arts. Agreed you could have trained 5 days a week for 3 hours each day, but I doubt it.

    i'm not saying your arguments have no validity, but to understand the limitations of a MA you need to gain a decent proficiency in that art in the first place. Also you need to attain a decent proficiency in another art to be able to compoare the two effectively. If you had started TKD after training in Muay Thai for 5/6 years then you would be in a positon to see the limitations of TKD after 2/3 years. I'm no expert in different arts (2nd Dan WTF) and a 6 months Wushu. I wouldnt attempt to argue the limitations of wushu vs taekwondo because I dont know enough about practical Kung Fu to compare.

    I think your opinions are based on what you've heard from others.
     
  10. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    Great post, Moosey.

    True enough, most people don't know how to fight at all, and a little training goes a long way for self defence, no matter which style you train in.
    So I will admit that taekwondo can suffice for self defence, providing your assailant is more or less of the same size and strength as yourself.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2006
  11. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    Wynnema - I disagree. Pick a couple of what you deem to be good representatives for your style (in this case your average taekwondo practitioner), in my weight class, and give me five minutes with each of them, and I'll know if your style is any good or not.

    It doesn't take years to find out. It takes a round or two in the ring/cage.
     
  12. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    we can split hairs all day long about the various org rulesets. The point is that if you're talking about learning to fight then MMA training also falls well short of the mark you're setting for TKD.

    why would I want to? Here's where your arrogance shows - nobody would. Not your 'average TKD practicioner, not your average boxer, not even your average fitness kickboxing/Tae Bo student.

    I'm trying to find an opponent for my first fight @ 195. I guess we'll be finding out then, eh? At least mine will be a real "fight" and not an in house sparring match. Here's a hint for you - if people don't buy tickets, it ain't a fight.

    ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2006
  13. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    Meh. People came to see me fight. That's good enough for me.

    MMA/Submission wrestling tournaments around here don't charge for you to come spectate, either way.
    Whether or not it's a fight really doesn't have a whole lot to do with the audience.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2006
  14. wynnema

    wynnema Valued Member

    thats easy to say from your computer. now try addressing my points.

    you have a very narrow view on this subject. Its like you've fought one person in your bedroom with a couple of mates watching and they used a TKD move so now you are convinced that TKD is useless in a MMA environment.
     
  15. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    I've said the same to people's faces.
    I had doubts about grappling once, too. However, they were more than willing to prove that their system works.
    And now I train BJJ. Imagine that.

    And no, the people I've sparred were fairly skilled at taekwondo. Not at "trying some move they'd seen on TV" level, if that's what you're implying.

    Anyway...what points? I might have missed something. What is it you want me to address?
     
  16. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    I think he knew very well that kick wouldn't land.
    Arona was already out of range for the lowkick, and moved further back when he saw Shogun continue the spin.
    He dominated Arona all the way. He was just showboating.

    You can't really see it in context, but you can see the kick and the aftermath at 2:50 in this highlight.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5124182706248284612&q=shogun

    As you can see, Shogun composed himself before Arona could counter, and actually got a takedown and an omoplata attempt.

    And for Hux, you can see him kicking Rampage Jackson's head like a football at 6:55 minutes, followed by the KO against Arona 10-15 seconds later.

    I like his style. Figured I'd share.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2006
  17. hux

    hux ya, whatever.

    You're splitting hairs. did he also grab the guy's scrotum and pull?

    It's not fighting.
     
  18. ryanTKD

    ryanTKD New Member

    It just seems (well that clip anyway) like street brawling...

    I thought MAs were supposed to be artful? Anyone could do that.

    I don't mean to be offensive by the way ... sorry if I am.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2006
  19. Mjelva

    Mjelva Banned Banned

    No, no. You're not offensive.
    In full contact fighting, where you're actively trying to knock your opponent out (and unfortunately, he's generally trying to do the same to you), it often looks like that.
    It does closer resemble a brawl than for instance boxing or muay thai, but that's in large part due to the smaller gloves, which make it realistically possible to knock someone out with a single clean hit.

    Some styles try to look artful. Full contact fighting takes a much more pragmatic approach, however. Aesthetics generally get in the way of effectiveness, and when you're going all out, effectiveness is definitely prioritized. Though, as we've seen, MMA fighters do like to show off if they can do so without getting pummeled for it.

    It may look easy, but trust me when I say it's not.
    I did a quick check, and I recommend you stop by Next Generation.
    It's an MMA gym, and it seems there's muay thai and boxing in the same building, as well.
    "Fighters and Fitness Studio, 3 Wellington Road, Wavertree, Liverpool"
    07791198348
    paul@chrisbrennan.com

    I'm sure they'll let you participate as much or as little as you feel comfortable.
    Hopefully it'll be an eye-opener for you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2006
  20. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    I dunno, that's quite a short time of training to be going around saying that TKD is useless... Not that I don't completely disagree with you, but I think it would be more prudent to get the necessary experience fighting with these people and getting a reasonable sampling of the TKD population before you do.

    Me too. I did fine against grapplers when it was stand up only. But when we sparred MMA rules I got submitted by BJJ guys after dancing on my feet for a while. Been in BJJ ever since. Funny when I look back I was the typical TMAer, saying that crosstraining was blah and that grappling was gay and I'd just bite and eyepoke. My SBD master (who believes in crosstraining) kicked the crap out of me and took me down and GnP and that clinched it, BJJ for meee.

    It is fighting at its purest. Plus I think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, you may not see a jab-cross-clinch-knee-takedown-kimura fake-to armbar ftw as "artistic" but I think there is quite a bit of technique and art to pull something like that off on a resisting opponent...
     

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