Do you agree with what this instructor says in this video about ethics in martial arts??

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by thegoodguy, Jun 5, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. thegoodguy

    thegoodguy Valued Member

    Here's the video:

    I think he's concerned with the legal implications issue and that all self-defense instructors should be careful with what they teach to people
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    He's not talking about legal implications, he's talking about emotional implications.

    I think it's a well-placed criticism of Rambo fantasies, where every person who crosses your path is a target for extermination with extreme prejudice. It's not a healthy place to keep your mind.
     
    axelb, Southpaw535 and Knee Rider like this.
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I agree with most of that apart from the bit about the old sensei's. Some old sensei's were violent nasty pieces of work.
     
    axelb, Southpaw535, Mitch and 4 others like this.
  4. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    [​IMG]
     
    axelb likes this.
  5. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    STRIKE FIRST
    STRIKE HARD
    NO MERCY
     
    hewho, axelb, Mushroom and 1 other person like this.
  6. thegoodguy

    thegoodguy Valued Member

    I agree in the case your life ( or a beloved one's ) is in big danger and there's no other option
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    He was joking. It's the motto of the Cobra Kai from Karate Kid. ;)

     
    Mitlov likes this.
  8. thegoodguy

    thegoodguy Valued Member

    You're right that the guy didn't mention anything about legal implications. But let me explain what I want to mean:

    If a particular instructor is not careful with what he teaches to his students ( about when exactly both to apply and not to apply techniques that can get the attacker killed ), someday one of his students might get into trouble in the legal sense. For example, there are some gun disarm techniques ( from close distance obviously ) where you snatch the weapon from the attacker and step back a little and shoot him. If you do that, you might end up in jail because from the moment you snatch the weapon from him your life is not in danger anymore. And things would be worse if the witnesses see it only from the moment you had the weapon. You can get accused of being the killer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That is something that will vary with local laws. You have to be aware of the law in your area, or places you visit.

    I'm no firearm expert, but I think there are even more pressing concerns with those kinds of gun disarms, even if we presume they might work; such as you have no idea if their gun will fire, or misfire and potentially injure you, you would have to be comfortable enough with the controls to operate it while staying focused on your attacker, etc.. If it isn't loaded and they are using it purely for intimidation, they now have the upper hand and can fake being scared until they pick an opportune moment to attack you.
     
    Knee Rider likes this.
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    If you are a civilian and the risk of being held up with a gun is so common you need to train for it then I'd suggest not training, saving up that money and moving somewhere nicer.
    It blows my mind people take an art like Krav, which was developed by a nation in a perpetual state of counter terrorism (let's not get into that can o' worms) and then move it over to a completely different setting.
     
    axelb, Knee Rider, Mitch and 3 others like this.
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Why do you hate freedom so much? :p
     
    axelb, Southpaw535 and Dead_pool like this.
  12. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Don't some UK martial arts schools train in knife defense? If your homicide rate is 1 per 100,000 and the knife is the most common murder weapon, and you don't go around telling people to "just move neighborhoods" if they train in an art that includes knife defense, why isn't the same true for learning handgun defense anywhere where the homicide rate is equal or higher than the UK and the most common murder weapon is a handgun?
     
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'd say the same about knives too really.
    If I lived in an area with a high knife crime I'd be looking to move. As it is I live in fairly rural North Yorkshire where I'm more likely to be killed by a cow than a knife (although my risk of knife crime goes up and down during my commute to work in a larger city).
    I'm from London and wouldn't go back and live in a big city if you paid me TBH.

    Self defence for me is all about assessing risk in your life as a whole and making good decisions to minimise that risk rather than ignoring the risk and patching over it.
     
    axelb, Knee Rider and David Harrison like this.
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I actually agree with both you and Smitfire. He has a valid point that reducing the risk of violence by living in an area with low crime is probably the most proactive and pre-emptive thing you can do in terms of self-defence.

    The trouble with gun disarms is that they are usually fantastical nonsense, and the people doing them have only ever held a blue plastic training gun. I mean, racking that blue plastic slide at the end of an awesome move does look fun, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

    Gun disarms are the new board breaking.
     
    Knee Rider likes this.
  15. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    What's wrong with board breaking? I loved that in TKD. No, it was not fighting. But it was cool. And if you can break a board with a head-level spinning hook kick while the holder only holds one side of the board, you've got a respectable spinning hook kick.

    It's all great to say "just move somewhere else," but realistically, do you expect the entire population of Baltimore to quit their jobs, sell their apartments, and move to the suburbs of Salt Lake City? If someone lives in a rough neighborhood, they were probably born into it, it's not like they can just abandon everything and go start a new life and career somewhere else for the $100/month they spend on martial arts.

    I agree that there are plenty of garbage gun disarms. Also plenty of garbage escapes from a choke hold, but that doesn't mean that the fundamental idea of learning escapes from a choke hold are stupid and no martial artist should do them. (Even though the chances of you actually being choked on the street in real life are extremely, extremely low). I thought the Shotokan-style side snap kick (yoko geri keage) is garbage, but that doesn't mean the concept of kicking is garbage. We should keep the question of whether "is this particular gun disarm garbage" separate from "is the very concept of training gun disarms garbage."

    In my opinion, as someone who does own firearms and know how to use them, if you're manipulating the controls on a handgun as part of the disarm, your disarm is waaaaaaaay too complicated. A gun disarm should get control of the gun so that the muzzle isn't pointed toward you. Keep the line of the muzzle off your body and either disable the attacker, get the gun away and run, or get the gun away while you disable them. Racking the slide is pointless from a safety perspective unless you've also dropped the magazine first, and unless you already know where the magazine release is (which varies wildly from handgun to handgun) you're not going to be able to drop the magazine while fighting someone. Also, none of that works on a revolver. But just controlling the direction of the muzzle works exactly the same whether you're dealing with a Glock 19, a 1911, a Walther PPK, or a Colt Detective Special. In that sense, a good gun disarm is no more complicated than a good knife disarm.

    I personally live in a small city (about 70,000 people) in an agricultural county and I don't like big cities either. But is it really realistic to say that people should just abandon the very concept of a metropolis? Isn't 21st century society based around the expectation that lots of people live in big cities?
     
    Knee Rider and David Harrison like this.
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Other people can do what they like. It ain't for me though. I'm absolutely baffled how people deal with it. 2 minutes driving inside the m25 (London orbital road) and I've usually been cut up 5 times. :)
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Cool is fine, but selling cool as life-saving reliable technique is not.

    Yes, it is not possible for everyone, and everyone must weigh that choice for themselves. I was just saying that it makes general logical sense.

    So, like I said, I'm no authority on firearms, but if I were to get into that, I would be looking at gaining competence at all aspects: combat shooting, self-defence simulations with simunition etc... I would have thought that disarms would be low down on the list of ways to avoid being killed by a firearm.

    I was talking about bad gun defence training because that was the subject of the OP video. The guy said that he saw lots of flashy disarms done by people who obviously know nothing about how to properly use a firearm.

    Almost everything I've seen reminds me of gendai JJ "self-defence" moves against one massively telegraphed attack with a wooden tanto. The lack of realism in the attacks leads to a lack of realism in the defences. People fall over and give up after the first move, no-one is fighting on the ground grappling for the weapon or using free limbs to strike etc...

    Most of it appears to be frustrated action movie characters. Not even action movie actors, but characters. It is deranged behaviour for the most part.

    Now, I am probably more biased because of the (usually Krav) schools in the UK who teach "self-defence" courses involving plastic M4 rifles where they sell some kind of sick fantasy where you supposedly learn how to kill a jihadist with their own rifle. It's ridiculous.
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I didn't realise knife crime in London had got that bad! :eek:
     
    Monkey_Magic, Knee Rider and Smitfire like this.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Oh you...you know what I meant.
     
    David Harrison likes this.
  20. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    That sort of training is for defending yourself against an armed opponent if you yourself are armed as well. I thought we were taking about training for if your opponent is armed and you are not.

    Sure, that's all fine, but I still think there's value (for people who train for defense, not sport) in learning how to respond to a mugging / abduction attempt with a handgun in addition to learning how to respond to a mugging / abduction attempt with a knife. At least if those attacks involve handguns where you live. Like I said, in the USA, knives are less common than handguns a murder weapons.

    And if you're attacked by someone with serious handgun training, you're not getting it away from them. This isn't Jason Bourne. But most street criminals don't have anything like that. And there ARE a number of documented cases of unarmed people disarming armed assailants (2002 Monash University, Australia; 2015 Thalys, France; May 27, 2018 Noblesville, Indiana). Keep it simple. Keep the muzzle away and tackle them or hit them until they're disarmed. It's not guaranteed to work, but if the alternative is to stand there and get shot, it's worth a try.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page