Do Shotokan blocks work?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by homer_simps1, Jan 26, 2006.

  1. Jang Bong

    Jang Bong Speak softly....big stick

    I'm in total agreement with bassai - I've agreed to disagree with Timmy before, and bear no bad feelings. :)

    The reason I keep reading (and adding to) these debates is that they are fun.

    Pyung Ahn (Peace & Harmony)
     
  2. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I understand that people in "TMAs" (I dislike the term myself) often don't train with learning to fight effectively as their main goal, or even as a goal at all. You don't need to convince me that training in such a way is a good idea, because it's obvious - if that's what you enjoy, then do it! I'm only speaking from an effectiveness standpoint because the title of this thread is "do shotokan blocks work?", not "is practicing shotokan blocks fun?".
     
  3. Captain Karate

    Captain Karate New Member

    As a former Karateka (might revisit it again in the future ;)) myself I thought I might input some into this thread, since while doing a shotokan splinterstyle (pretty much the same thing) I wrestled with this and similar questions myself.

    Do shotokan blocks work?

    What do you mean?
    a) The "traditional" full kihon basic techniques? No. Only if your opponent has parkinson's disease, or is more than 80 years old. Preferably a combination of both.

    b) The refined, modified, sparring versions of the basics? Sometimes, if your really bloody fast and understand how to deflect and redirect force.

    The thing is I don't believe that the Japanese or Okinawans could really be that profoundly stupid as to come up with blocking movements like those. To cut a long story short I don't think shotokan blocks are actually blocks to begin with.

    I've trained once with Patrick Macarthy, and in that seminar he showed us how the lower block (geidan berai uke, I think) was actually a striking movement and also a grappeling move, and also how the upper block (can't remember the Japanese) was a strike, the inner block (uchi uke) was actually a grappling technique and I think he showed us how the knife hand block (shuto uke) was for breaking the arm during a grapple.

    What really ****es me off is how no one in the Shotokan world knows what the hell is going on with the Kihon and Kata. I know there's guys like Patrick Mcarthy running around reverse engineering the Kata and looking for all the clues to fit the puzzle together like some Karate Detective(tm).

    I alsoagree with the guy who said something along the lines of how in Kumite, Karate tends to collapse into bad kickboxing. Seriously that's what Kyokushin sparring tends to look like to me, only more badass and hardcore since they wear no gloves and do more hardcore kicks.

    What I want to know is that is there any way to find out what the techniques of the original okinawan Karate were has anyone really, truly, 100% confidently found out what the original developers of Karate were thinking with the Kihon and Kata?

    Also it's a bit unfair for me to say Karate. Really I'm talking about Shotokan, but do the other styles of Karate say Goju or Uechi actually know what their blocks mean or do they have similar unrealistic "blocking" movements?
     
  4. JSKdan

    JSKdan Valued Member

    From what I know, I dont think anyone is 100% confident about kata and kihon but now have a very good idea as to what is.
    You must remember that there is some of the much older styles of MA in china to compare with ( with is what Paul Perry has done of years ) but also the all the sercrets before and not all the info being pass on to everyone ( students ),
    some of the MA have been watered down
     
  5. Captain Karate

    Captain Karate New Member

    Yeah that's why I have taken up a new interest in CMA. Apparently Fukien White Crane is quite similar to it's derivative of Uechi-ryu Karate. And that Fukien White Crane has had an influence on all Karate.

    What would be better would be if we could get our hands on the actual original Okinawan-te. But I suppose that's like getting our hands on the actual original Ninjitsu (yeah I know neo-ninjas... please don't assasinate me).

    I believe the Shotokan Karate we have today is a combination of misintepretation and "watereddowness" if that is a word.
     
  6. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Yet despite how terribly watered down and unrealistic and abstracted and historically inaccurate it is, shotokan still produces some great karateka.

    Strange coincidence that...
     
  7. JSKdan

    JSKdan Valued Member

    I think you have missed the point as there are and will be some great karateka but as Captain Karate said what some of US do is base partly on misintepretation ( not that it is no good , I could not say it was no good with who I train with. I think that might sound a bit big headed but it is not ment to be. Seeing in beliveing )
    If you get the chance to train with Patrick McCarthy, please do and will see what we mean :)
     
  8. JSKdan

    JSKdan Valued Member

    You must also remember what Funakoshi taught in japan was not what he had been taught him self , it was a watered down version of what he was taught ( less dangerous ).
     
  9. Captain Karate

    Captain Karate New Member

    Yeah he tweaked his Karate to make it a fitness reigme, a self development program (hence the karate-do), and also a competition sport. Or as i've read.

    It's quite ironic that what's been traditionally viewed as a "hard" style of Karate was actually geared toward self development. Which is not a bad thing, or even a unworthy goal for a MA. Just don't tell the kids that it is an ecomonical and efficient self-defense system. Not to say that Shotokan dosen't produce good fighters... I mean look at me! :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  10. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I'd certainly like to! One of these days I'll go to a seminar.

    I've heard this argument quite a lot. I'm gonna quote 24fightingchickens.com as I think he may have a point:
    The fact that karate is different now from what was practiced on Okinawa 100 years ago doesn't necessarily mean very much. I read an interview with Taiji Kase, who was learning karate in the 1940s, where he says he'd fought a goju practitioner in 1949 and beaten him using high kicks (which weren't practiced in goju at that time). Shotokan's deviation from the Okinawan formula had proven an advantage to him and lead to Goju adapting itself to include high kicks.
     
  11. Captain Karate

    Captain Karate New Member

    Interesting opinion I've never heard that one, thanks.
     
  12. JSKdan

    JSKdan Valued Member

    Moosey that is an intresting view but some where along the line things have changed ( some for the good and some bad )
    If you see some of the older kata's and know the application you will see that some very usefully application as been drop or lost.
    Thing have had to change because fighting has change ( with the help of MA being seen more for one) but it would seem that some things have been drop because they where old and not because they dont work
    I am guessing but from what I have seen from people like McCarthy, it seems to not be far off
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Don't know if this is in agreement or not with what has been posted, but I have witnessed first hand the changing of some bunkai through the years. The older versions of the bunkai did not go away, they just were not taught to beginners/intermediates anymore, but they could be learned at black belt levels.

    From what I've witnessed, I don't think it had much of anything to do with the techniques being too dangerous for kids to practice, I've found the opposite to be the case... that the techniques were too dangerous (as in too risky) for large adults to practice.

    Larger adults that were, let's say enthusiastic, would really power through the techniques on each other. They could mostly take it with some injury, but when they did the same with a smaller person, people really got hurt. This may not have been as much of a problem when people were closer to the same size in a culture, but we have such a mix of genetics in the last forty or so years in martial arts, I see plenty of times when a small and a large person will train together.

    If the technique was done with control and correctly, injury was seldom, but the technique was not always practiced with good control or correctly. People would get broken bones, teeth knocked out, whiplash, etc. as a result.

    Just my observations.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  14. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    'Great karateka' is a vague phrase though. If you mean mastery of the syllabus, performance of kata or some other skill that isn't directly related to combat, then yes. But if you mean fighting, then who are you talking about exactly? Like has been said loads of times in this thread, shotokan training as we know it is not designed for producing great fighters.
     
  15. Angelus

    Angelus Waiting for summer :D

    well OF COURSE SHOTOKAN BLOKS WORK!!!! If they didnt the art wouldnt still be around.
     
  16. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I have two things to say to that:

    1) Cult-like atmosphere in some clubs that makes people not want to question what they're learning.

    2) Lack of regular, realistic and publicised pressure testing.
     
  17. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter


    I would imagine moosey is refering to some of the great kugb fighters like frank brennan and terry o'neil also their instructor enoeda sensei was known as a fearsome fighter :)
     
  18. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    Wasn't Terry O'Neill a guy who helped invent kickboxing?
     
  19. Hiroji

    Hiroji laugh often, love much

    Mmmmmmm the more i read about karate the more i get the feeling that it is one massive misunderstanding, like something wasnt past on in translation.

    The "traditional" blocks in kata are actually not blocks at all according to some. Iain Abernethy is a good guy to look up on that subject.

    Ive said it before, i think there is a lot of wasted potential in karate.
     
  20. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

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