Do Female MA's need Self Defense courses?

Discussion in 'Women's Self Defence' started by Drunken Miss Ho, May 17, 2005.

  1. Drunken Miss Ho

    Drunken Miss Ho New Member

    Ok, as someone who's taken various martial arts over the years, will a women's self defense course teach me anything I don't already know? If I were mugged or attacked, I would first try to de-escalate (give him the dam wallet etc.) and if that didn't work yell, scream, go for eyes nose throat groin etc., kick and punch like crazy, and run to a "safe" place. Will a self defense course teach me anything beyond that? I'm thinking my time would be better spent learning BJJ.

    From reading the threads on here, it seems SD classes are mostly about building confidence, which I really don't need any more of :D . Still, my neighborhood can be rough, so I want to be as safe as I can. Any thoughts?
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2005
  2. minimal

    minimal New Member

    If you have never had a uke put on full body armor (and I mean including a helmit) and go at you with 50% strikes and full momentum, you should do so, whether part of SD or MA.

    You use a punching bag in training, I assume?

    Shake up your own sparring by starting on the ground and trying to recover striking range quickly, to drilling surprise attacks from behind and the side. Do some sparring against a weapon, like a wooden knife. Unarmed combat is more likely and easier to spar but try to do some.
     
  3. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    As tellner and others will tell you, all Self defense courses are not created equal. If it's a good SD course then anyone should take it, regardless of gender. If it's a bad one, I'd personally avoid it.

    Bottomline: if you're training ultimately for self defense, you should be suplimenting the physical with mental and emotional training. Just like there are physical ranges, there are conceptual ranges and you need to be able to fight effectively in all of them.

    That said, for the average martial artist (who practices with a good level of contact) self defense is something to take primers on and think about as a suplimental type of training. BJJ is more of a show up every week.

    Can you tell us more about the self defense program?

    - Matt
     
  4. TkdWarrior

    TkdWarrior Valued Member

  5. Drunken Miss Ho

    Drunken Miss Ho New Member

    I never done such training with a uke :cry:, not even back when I took karate. Will a good SD course offer this and the weapons training? I would be really interested in doing that sort of thing. My current school does a lot of punching with the focus mits, one minute rounds moving around the room etc. and I'm about to start San Shou (it's a separate class at my school) so that should help a lot.

    I don't have one picked out yet, just figuring out if I need to take one and what to look for.

    Martial arts to me is an art first, the self defense part is just a bonus, so my main interest in taking a course in SD is just to know what to do in a bad situation; SD isn't my "goal" with martial arts. But I still love to fight, of course :D .
    Are there mixed gender SD courses? If there are, are they usually better?

    A lot of the women specific stuff they go over wouldn't really help me, like what to do in high heels and a skirt (I don't wear 'em) or how to get over a fear of fighting back.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2005
  6. snake_plisskin

    snake_plisskin Valued Member

    A good self-defense course may or may not offer the type of 50% training--around here it's called Red Man (for the huge goofy suit uke/aggressor wears)--you seek. Use your judgment. It actually seems effective in some ways, as the person wearing the suit often buckles and falls back. The only problem I'd see is the space most training takes place in, and the psychological mindset involved in being attacked in ones "safe" area.

    I'm sure there are dual gender classes, and I'd imagine they'd be of use to women and men alike. Don't forget ya'll--Charlie Manson's "family", who hacked, slashed, stabbed and gutted everyone at the Tate and LaBianca mansions, had of plenty of women in it willing, and quite able, to cover themselves in blood.

    Furthermore, you might like to fight, or rather have little compulsion against doing so, but there's an entirely different set of physiological reactions between duking it out at the local clam bar with an overanxious drunk, and defending yourself against some some smiling psychopath who's decided to attack you before you've even had time to push the elevator buttons. Remember: the ones who'll really try to kill you don't always go the way of escalation. Rather, they move from zero/innocent to "full kill" in an eyeblink.

    To supplement your san shou training--which should serve you well--I'd suggest you read Gavin DeBecker's The Gift of Fear , and make a study of predatory behavior. I know it's just academic, but you never know...

    I have about fifteen thousand more suggestions that might help augment your self defense training, but I'm too tired to think. For instance, if you have a cell phone, it helps to know where the "dead zones" are, places where, if you're in trouble, you can't call 911/for help.

    --Snake
     
  7. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    There are some programs I have a lot of respect for because I think they cover everything quite well. In particular I like Tony Blauer's material and have gone on about it at length here. Geoff Thompson is another guy whose written some excellent material.

    And there are a few posters here that I also think run great programs from the sound of it.

    Again, get info about the SD possibilities in the area and share them. We might be able to help. But I wouldn't put off working BJJ, especially at a Machado school... but that's the subject of a different, and contentious, thread.

    - Matt
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I believe what many are suggesting falls under the area of Reality Based Self Defense (RBSD) training. The part that you might be lacking in from your martial arts is the testing of yourself in a pressure situation against an aggressor... this is termed, pressure testing.

    However, before going and just finding "pressure testing", it helps to put things into the right context for learning. It isn't as much what is taught as what is learned that is important. If you find you have no real interest, then you won't really learn it. You need to be interested in learning for the context of self-defense.

    If you are a long time martial artist, there should be nothing you need from a self-defense course that you haven't been putting the hard work into for years. That is, until you become interested in learning more, then you open up a big can of worms and be prepared to have your world around you shattered and your beliefs questioned internally.

    You don't have a clue, start with learning about the environment and culture you are dealing with (the context). Do your homework. Read this... http://www.cityofseattle.net/police/Publications/Prevention/PersonalSafety.pdf -- a simple document put out by the Seattle Police.

    If anything in there sparks your interest to learn more, then you could do something like this: http://www.cityofseattle.net/police/Community/CPA/default.htm -- a program put on by the Police to educate civilians that are interested in policing, you even get an opportunity to ride along with a police officer while they do their job. Now this program is probably too much to go through unless you are interested in policing. So I would not recommend starting with such a commitment, however law enforcement agencies often host similar smaller courses to educate civilians. I suggest you contact your local law enforcement agency and find out what resources they provide to educate civilians. This is a very good place to start.

    It always starts small, you only need to open your eyes and mind.

    Once you get a grasp of the context, you will know what you need and want, then go for it.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2005
  9. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I wouldf think that if they used the big red man then it woiuld at the very least be a good chance to try out what you have learned in classes.

    On a side note I would absoloutley love to see a thai ring fighter go up against someone in that suit, I have a feeling the results would be hillarious.
     
  10. Drunken Miss Ho

    Drunken Miss Ho New Member

    Matt- OK, I'll find out what my options are and post them. It sounds like I should try to find something with pressure testing and mental preparedness. Do the mental ranges you're talking about go beyond what not to do i.e. Don't go for walks at night, stay in well lit areas, don't wear headphones, stay alert, etc.?

    I think my encounters with self defense training in the past have been of the "bad" variety i.e. "Eyes! Nose! Throat! Groin! Rapes are commited by someone you know, don't drink that free drink, etc. OK bye ladies." so that's why I might seem dismissive of SD courses. I don't think my martial arts training will automativally get me out of a bad situation, but I'm wondering if an SD workshop helps that much either.
    I really have no idea what a good course would cover, I guess, but I've tried to answer my questions by reading the SD threads here and I've just gotten more confused :eek: .

    Rebel Wado- I think the first link you put on there is wrong, it's the same as the second and not a document. And when you say I don't have a clue, it would be helpful if you told me what it is I don't have a clue about.

    Snake- When I said I like to fight, that's only in class, don't think I'm a clam bar brawler :D .
     
  11. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    Personally i think SD is all about application, just learnt o apply what you know from the art you do and you'll be fine
     
  12. Drunken Miss Ho

    Drunken Miss Ho New Member

    OK- here's one-
    http://www.aware.org/aboutaware.shtml
    It doesn't seem all that great to me, what do you all think? My other choices are from Martial Arts schools, I'll try to find some URLS. The Aware one seems bad to me because of the emphasis on handguns, I don't think carrying a gun is a realistic or viable means of self defense.

    I should also tell you all my reasons for being interested in SD. More than a few acquaintances of mine have been beaten up by teenage kids who they didn't know within minutes of were I live. I consider my neighborhood "safe" but it's common for kids to come here looking for targets (usually college students, but I look college-age) sometimes in the middle of the day. I also know a woman who was kidnapped by a stranger from in front of her house just a few blocks from me. A few months ago, I was parked across the street from a concert venue. Right as I walked from my car to the venue, a couple who was walking maybe 30 feet behind me was mugged as I entered the venue. I'm also concerned with anti-gay hate crimes, which have happened to friends of mine. I'm safety conscious, and try to make myself not a target, but it's hard not to be concerned when things keep happening so close to me.

    For obvious reasons, a self defense course that spends loads of time talking about date rape isn't going to be of much use to me, but they seem to be the majority of what's offered.
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I fixed the link, should work now.

    When I said "don't have a clue" that wasn't directed at you but more of a statement about the before and after. Before "walking the walk" people have ideas, but after "walking the walk" people tend to have 20/20 hindsight and can see where they were clueless.

    As for the meaning of "don't have a clue" what it really means is "don't have a clue how much you already know." A good self-defense course should not teach you to use new things (unless they plan on having you around for the many weeks and months it takes to ingrain new things into seated instinct) but instead they should address how you can use WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE and put it into the context of Self-defense. Part of this is to test out and really find out what you do have, but context is important as you will have to find a way to take what you already know and have and be able to transfer/blend/adapt it to different contexts.

    There is not just one context, but the issue is that the majority of martial arts training is only for one context. The key is to open up the mind so that you can transfer that to other contexts efficiently, instinctively, and effectively. In this case, to transfer your martial arts abilities to the street (self-defense).

    Don't go looking for new answers. Improve what you have so that it transfers to any context you need it to. Before you can transfer skills to a new context, it really helps to gain extensive knowledge and experience in the new context.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2005
  14. Drunken Miss Ho

    Drunken Miss Ho New Member

    Ahh, OK that makes perfect sense, thanks for clearing that up. That link is good, it's all information I already "know" but it's amazing how often one can forget to apply it, even though it all seems so common sense. Might be helpful to read it once a month as a refresher. I like what you said about putting what you already know to use, instead of seeking out new knowledge.
     
  15. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Most self defence schools of thought like to use the "natural reaction" reflex - you know flinch as years of natural deflection is already built-in to us - I personally feel thats a very good technique to use...
     
  16. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    I'll take a look at the site. Actually it seems like a bit of a mix and might be an interesting place.

    On the mental "ranges" part of it's understanding that most fights start with:

    An emotional engagement
    leading to a phsychological engagement
    leading to a physical engagement

    Most martial training focuses on the final part. Further, there are many cultural indoctrinations that tend to cause people to ignore or deny that the first two things are happening to them leading them to be suprised by the final.

    A good self defense program with typically work on moving you through all of those mental ranges and working on how to escalate or descalate as necessary.

    - Matt
     
  17. Drunken Miss Ho

    Drunken Miss Ho New Member

    I looked at the AWARE site more, some of it does seem pretty good, I just get very turned off when people advocate carrying guns as self defense. I think I may have passed judgment too soon.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2005
  18. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    In one of the recent Black Belt/TKD Times magazines there was a similar question asked. I asked the question on our schools website what the women thought about it. Most thought it was a pretty sappy idea to have a women only SD course.
     
  19. Drunken Miss Ho

    Drunken Miss Ho New Member

    I think I would definetly prefer a mixed environment. It's most likely if I'm attacked or mugged it will be by a guy, so I may as well have plenty of them around to practice on during an SD workshop :D . I feel that some of the courses designed just for women are so basic, it seems like a mixed gender workshop would be a sign of better "quality." I bet some women probably would need a female-only environment to feel comfortable though.
     
  20. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    The people in AWARE are good folks, but they can be a little fixated on guns. Since you're in New England you might want to talk to the people at The American Women's Self Defense Association for a referral. Many (most?) of their members are in that part of the country.
     

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