Do differences in wrestling styles really matter?

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Pitfighter, Feb 5, 2006.

  1. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    I'm more of a boxing/kickboxing fan but I figure y'all are the best to ask on wrestling since most Western martial arts are wrestling styles. I've heard of the terms can-can, sambo, folkstyle etc. and some people seem to want to learn a specific style but at the end of the day don't most of these different styles end up using the same techniques in freestyle, greco-roman, or submission competitions? The techniques that varies them doesn't seem to dictate how a wrestler fights in competition so much as that wrestler's build and natural aptitudes for what works for them. I know some Jujitsu grappling techniques and even though its supposed to be different from Western wrestling I think the techniques really only differ cause Western competitions emphasis different things mainly pinning in nonsubmission competitions.

    Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this I'm not really well versed in Wrestling. Ex. I've heard the term underhook but don't really know what the hell it means, I think wrestlers are talking about wrapping your arm under your opponents, am I right?
     
  2. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Wraslin' old style

    hi Pitfighter, hopefully one of our contributers can assist you with the wrestling terms.

    As you probably know, the styles that you mentioned are probably 'recent' inventions of older regional styles. My thoughts are that many of them were originally aimed at tackling weapon weilding opponents if you lost your own weapon.
    The Norway style 'Glima' for instance, probably involved wrapping your arms around your opponents sword & shield arms, grabbing his belt, and tripping/sweeping him. (Within a confined shoulder to shoulder, mass battle situation). Backhold and other regional styles probably mimic the same type of situation.
    Check out the grappling in some medieval 12-1400's grappling illustrations. You will see the same 'jui jitsu' type armlocks, finger locks, sweeps and throws used by knights & knaves.

    Louie
     

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  3. rubberband

    rubberband Valued Member

    Pitfighter, There are many types of wrestling all over the world... every culture has a wrestling form and most emphasize different types of clinches and take downs. As Louie pointed out many skills were probably derived from dealing with weapons wielding attackers and some techniques developed under purely unarmed conditions as well. The medieval fight books support both the weapons theory and the unarmed theroies and many of the techniques of modern submission wrestling can be found in these manuals. Techniques such as the full nelson, sugar hold, knee bar, single leg, sprawl, hip toss, wizzer, etc... the main difference is that today wrestling is widely viewed as a sport that is seperate from its martial arts past.

    The systems you listed, Catch as catch can, Sambo, Greco-Roman, folkstyle, and others such as modern freestyle, gilma, mongolian, San chao, sumo, Cumberland, Lancashire, Judo, etc... are all different and emphasise different ideas of scoring points and therefore different methods of controling an opponent... all of the ones listed are sports...
    Jiu jitsu is a grappling method that has recently become a sport... and inspired a modifications of wrestling techniques into the broad spectrum art of submission wrestling...

    An underhook is when you force your arm under your opponents shoulder to gain leverage. this is used to facilitate a throw or takedown. the act of forcing the arm in is called pummeling.


    Louie, I think it is interesting that you bring up the countering weapons weilding attackers... Greco-Roman wrestling involves controling the upper body and both cultures prefered a short sword. While the medieval Germanic schools stressed knocking a man to the ground where his longer sword is useless and pinning him in a way to expose a weakness in his armour for a knife thrust. And if you look at the texts of the renaissance you can see how the emphasis remained of knocking a long sword wielder to the ground but the means of dealing with a knife wielder evolved to deal with the change in prefered knife grip with the absence of armour. I also think it is important to point out that many battlefield martial arts of old didn't teach ground fighting but rather rebounding from the ground because of the prevalence of spears on the battle field. I think this is why many arts viewed wrestling as ending with a throw... once on the ground the bad guy was a pin cushion...

    take care, steve
     
  4. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I see Glima beeing mentioned as well as some wresteling beeing designed to fit/counter weapons. I'd like to elaborate: There are several sources to "viking" wresteling*, Glima beeing one of them, that is more of a game, where you don't need weight-classes, as the rules evens out weightdifferences and all**.

    But allthough Glima is a game, it had a serious side as well. When you fight with spear and shield + an axe/a sword as a back-up-weapon, you don't get to do all that much with your hands when it comes to wresteling. It was therefore a point in training the legs to be able to trick an opponent to fall, and to train the legs to not loose footing if tripping over somthing on the ground, or beeing tackled by someone. So the Glima was therefore invented as a trainingmethod and a game -to enhance those abilities.

    *Wresteling in water, where you won if you made the opponent yield or loose consiousness-AND bringing him safe ashore. Winner was best of three rounds.

    **The rules emphasise that the opponents have their feet relatively close togheter; an upright stance, and to bounce around; allmost dance, so that your feet often are not in contact with the ground.

    If you want the "ultimate wresteling style", you have to know what to apply it against. If it comes to unarmed wresteling to the death or against armed wresteling to the death. In addition, people are designed differently, and not all techniques and styles fit for every person. The best thing is to shop around and see if you find a style that fits you. If you are a kickboxer/boxer, I'd like to recomend Panatuka; filipino self defence, that basically is kickboxing+breaks and holds (it resembles Fior di battaglia; an Italian combat-manual from 1410).
     
  5. Nightstrike

    Nightstrike MMA Nerd

    Yes, theres a huge difference, like in the philosophies of the system.
    also, if you watch in two separate MMA matches between two awesome wrestlers, and two awesome jiu jitsu guys, i can see an obvious difference, as I do both styles.
     
  6. Pitfighter

    Pitfighter Valued Member

    Nightstrike could you explain like what kinda techniques or strategies seem to differ between like olympic style wrestlers in MMA/submission fighting and JuJitsu wrestlers, or any other wrestling style you might want to mention.
     

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