Hi TQ, Well, there is frankly a difference in the credibility of tales that ascribe Taijiquan to misty mountain top sages, or to soldiers. So I don't buy your first paragraph at all - I didn't know anyone seriously still did. Secondly I don't agree at all that the Daodejing, Zhuangzi, Liezi, or Sunzi are meditation manuals or even particualrly esoteric (aimed at select individuals). While the Daodejing might be a bit cryptic at times, Zhuangzi and Liezi are quite straightforward philosophical texts and Sunzi's manual is simply a manuscript on military strategy. As I think it has been said before, the onus is on you to prove that qi does exist and you can't. Regarding how fast you can run or whatever, I give people the benefit of the doubt unless I feel that I have justifiable cause not to. I don't need you to prove it. Qi I want proof of. The problem here is that so-called qi sensations are easily achieved, but meaningless. And alleged qi sensations are pretty much the only evidence for qi anyone ever comes up with. The reason is that it is an outmoded model for the circulatory system, plain and simple. Maybe it sometimes relates to blood, sometimes to lymph, sometimes to nerves in muscle cavities, sometimes to fascia, whatever, it has been superseded by a far more detailed and reliable anatomical model. Have you ever done this trick? Stand in a doorway and push your arms firmly out against the door frame for a minute then step forwards, letting your arms relax and hang down. As if by magic, your arms float up and out to the sides. Ooh. Think how easy it would be to tell someone that was qi? Now point to any part of a person's arm and tell them that it is an important energy centre. Ask them to mentally focus on that point and place your palm above it quite close. I can pretty much guarantee that if you say "feel that?" they'll think "yeah, I do actually." It's no big deal - your body is riddled with nerves, focus on any little area and you'll become more aware of it. No big deal and all quite rational. Or just thinking about your lips for a moment - they'll tingle because you're actively listening to the nerve signals coming from them. Normally you wouldn't register those signals consciously. This does not prove that qi exists or that "where the mind goes the qi follows," it just proves that you have a nervous system and can focus your mind selectively on bits of it. But you are right that we are just turning our wheels in the mud. Oh well.
In regards the Daodejing all the evidence suggests that it was originally a compilation of 'old wisdom' aimed particularly towards rulers- giving advice on how the correct 'Way' to rule effectively not as an esoteric meditation manual. Being composed in the Warring States period, considering the audience of literary work at the time and the places in which the oldest versions have been found and the fact that the majority of chapters deal with statecraft rather than self-cultivation practices further supports this conclusion. It was interpreted philosophically in later periods in particular by Wang Bi to whom most modern philosophical interpretations of the text owe a great deal... but I don't think it's quite accurate to say that the inherent meaning of the Daodejing is as a meditation manual. The Zhuangzi is also clearly not a meditation manual but I would agree that its message is hardly straightforward. I heard a really nice analogy for the Zhuangzi once: It's like an account of a beautiful paradise but with no directions on how to get there . Though in saying all this it really does depend on interpretation obviously you could read any text as a meditation manual and 'meditating' on the ideas in Taoist texts is also entirely possible so I don't think a blanket dismissal of the value of such texts for meditation is entirely warranted. Still there are other early Taoist texts with much more explicit meditation instructions such as the Neiye so Im not sure where I stand on the issue . Just thought I'd throw my experience in- carry on!
Most of what has been posted so far just shows that we have all come from different training, lifestyles and belief backgrounds. We are not truly accomplishing anything, How can I prove without a doubt that Qi exists? Quite simply I cannot no matter what evidence I am able to put forth (or type considering we are on forums) even the internet with technology as great as it is can be doctored to discredit any accounts that could be filmed and/or done. Quite simply asking me to prove Qi exists is like asking for proof of god. How does one do this? I have put my own credibility on the line by writing what I feel, experienced, learned etc. at the risk of being discredited and found as a quack even in the MA circles. I will not put something up that I cannot put my own faith in, I could easily find youtube garbage that seems miraculous but is false and falesely represents the arts of Qigong. So therefore you are all correct I cannot prove that Qi exists. And as stated earlier it is merely a waste of time to keep spinning our wheels in the mud, for even with a correct definition of Qi (as per the chinese character) we are still going no where. It is much easier to say no to something and that something is impossible, than to believe it is possible, or there is a possibility. Due to the circumstances, I simply cannot provide what you all ask. I have been the only one to try to step up to the esoteric side of the debate and I simply cannot compete against everyone else that easily dismisses such things based on the falsehood that is out there. It is no different from others judging Tai Chi based on the erroneous ways of weekend warriors and 12 hour certified masters. Everyone here (it seems) has based their beliefs on Qigong and Qi on these same premises. So it is difficult if you cannot find true Qigong and true masters of this art, but I just ask that you all don't think ill of Qi and Qigong based on individuals who do the same thing as they do to Tai Chi.
Sorry to hear you sound so dejected TQ. I can at least empathise with sometimes feeling like a lone voice against many, as in the past the balance has often been weighed in the other direction. Just try to understand that it is possible for a person to go in either direction - towards belief of qi, or away from it, and not everyone who does not believe in qi has not had plenty of experience of it and just realised other explanations for experiences of that sort that feel a lot more true on an intuitive level and on a rational one. Some people I know (not just me) have had very negative experiences of qigong too and seen it corrupt people. Regarding proof of God - on a global scale, few people have doubted it until quite recent times. One could site Occam's razor - that when faced with two explanations for something, take the simplest. Or you could look at it this way. The existence of God explains the how and the why of the existence of the universe in a way that no other explanation manages so completely. While science might be able to do a good job of constantly re-evaluating the how of the universe, no secular reasoning has yet explained the why. When you have an experience or experiences of God on top of that reasoning, it is the final concluding factor in an already likely solution. Just my opinion. Take care, Joanna
Similarly the idea that the world was flat, but that could be proven whereas religion will only ever be conjecture. So the main argument is where did everything begin then if not by GOD, OK so if we accept that - where did he/she come from? In my opinion religion is a management tool, a way to get everyone to do what you want and threaten them with the power of magic if they don't - ie 'you will go to hell', 'you will invoke the wrath of GOD' etc.... It plays on peoples fears, morality and conscience to persuade them to act as required. How many wars have been fought in the name of GOD, how many killed? Just look at the situation around the world now. How many crimes against children by priests, using exactly the methodology I have described? Anyway that's all I'm saying on the subject because believers will never see it as it is. You want a straw poll on the subject - go to a church. The tao that can be named is not the true tao.
There is nothing wrong with faith. It gets challenged in all sorts of ways. If you believe, don't expect to make others believe. They will make up their own minds. This relates to religion, esoteric systems, easter bunny, hogfather, small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri.... If others don't share your belief or lack thereof, don't get riled, just glory in who you are and what you believe in. Do you really have to prove your argument. Can we 100% prove the non-existence of God?
which kinda makes you wonder why so many people get fired up on qi threads if it is (and I agree) pointless.
I have seen some people get "fired up" on these two threads I have been in discussion with. However, I personally don't try to get fired up, most people ask true and sincere questions. Mostly because from what I understand people are misled and misunderstand the purpose behind some of the "esoteric" Qi training. This is unfortunate as these techniques are truly designed to heal and help people, if they don't do that then the Qigong or technique is actually flawed. No one at all should ever experience terrible or uncomfortable sensations (wrong, or bad) during practice. Even my past teachers had found "qigong" methods where they experienced terrible sensations afterwards and immediately quit doing the prescribed Qigong. I just wish I could provide the answers everyone needs, but hey the weekend seminar i attened just finished and I haven't gotten my master cert. yet (I think it is in the mail ) Though I suppose once i get that i could demonstrate true Qi powers and say....make you do something............... like read this post got ya!
Here is one link, It at least explains the basics behind the 5 animal frolics that I brought up though, I have NOT trained with this teacher. Though I have met with, but not trained with Kenneth Cohen that they make mention of his 5 animal frolic set. Ken Cohen's book explains it best there is little good info on the 5 animal frolics set. It was originally developed by Hua Tuo an ancient chinese physicican that actually was the first to perform surgery with the aid of anethesia about 1,000 years before europeans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Tuo http://www.taichiinthepark.com/5animal.htm
Thank you Taoquan. Cohen's book does sound good. I particularly note these Key Benefits listed for practicing "The Five Animal Frolics": Who wouldn't want these benefits? I don't have enough of ANY of them! Hau Tuo too sounds like a very interesting person, ahead of his time. Sad ending he suffered. I guess many people ahead of their time suffer. fatb0y, I fail to see the relevance of your link. I guess you aren't a fan of cats.
This is just a dominant idea right now. Almost everything has been done in the name of religion, good and bad. Most people screw up every good idea by distorting it to suit their own selfish desires - it happens with political movements, religions... The people who really get it don't do that, but serve the idea instead. Judaism stopped human sacrifice. Christianity stopped animal sacrifice. Christianity stopped slavery. Or think of Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Mother Theresa, Mozart, Bach, Reubens, Michelangelo, St. Francis of Assisi, St. Nicholas... The work of Dr. Barnardos, The Children's Society, Oxfam, The Red Cross & The Red Crescent... God inspired scientists like Newton, Kepler, Copernicus. It is just silly, intellectually lazy and very untrue to imagine that religion is bad per se. It would be like saying science is bad per se. You can think of the smallpox vaccine or the Atom Bomb. Now you can go back to your conversations.
Sorry to get this thread a bit off topic, :topic: But it does prove my point, for somethings it is more a matter of personal faith and belief, rather than knock you in the face proof.
lol.. frankly I'm amazed that a thread on animal-chi has gone on for 7 frikken pages. Whether or not I think it's total BS is besides the point now... jkorya you get kudos for managing to have a thread like this survive 7 pages.
I agree with you JK and I am happy that these people were available to make these great contributions faith or not. Though, I was just saying that there is no proof because of their faith that they achieved these things. Same goes for Qi and Qigong, there are many great masters that truly help people and do great things to benefit mankind b/c of their faith in the healing. Though there are also quacks, same goes for every faith and/or religion, no reason to dismiss an entire religion/faith/belief. That was my point
The people mentioned credited God as the inspiration for their achievements. Therefore we can suppose that without that inspiration they wouldn't have. William Wilberforce - he's another one. Topical at the moment too.
