They are but two out of the many ways you can hurt someone yes. Doesn't the protective gear negate the point of the exercise a little bit? You seem to have an obsession with "Dirty tricks styles" and groin strikes. Groin strikes was one of about 3 million examples of "dirty" fighting so why don't you forget that one for a moment and perhaps we can move on with the discussion a little bit. "Dirty tricks styles" - no such thing, just a misconception you've built up to protect you from the fact that there may be some other styles out there which are as effective as yours. A misconception you'll hopefully discard in time. If you think Karate and the like rely on "dirty tricks" because their fighting ability isn't up to scratch then I'm sorry you are very misguided. Simple as that.
There you go with that "Dirty trick arts" thing again... where are you getting this from ? There you go obsessed with the groin strikes again. The fact that youcan't see beyond "groin strikes" as an example of a dirty fighting tactic is an indication to me that you might actually find dirty fighting suprisingly interesting, an a good compliment to your existing training. Which martial art is this you're talking about? Depends how far advanced the choke has gone, surely? Now THAT is the point I've been trying to make for ages now. Not a comparable example. 1 : I'm not lecturing I'm debating and putting foward arguments (the usual thing to do in a debate). 2 : The equivalent would be me coming in here and trying to tell you how to do an armbar. Not discuss "Dirty tactics vs grappling". So by the same token what right do you have to be making statements when you don't study "Dirty tactics"? Which you told us earlier? Or are you just asying that I don't have the right to post in teh BJJ forum if I do Karate? Which seems a bit.......closed..... Aw.....Bwaaahaaahaaaaa diddums. Clever soundbite, but I don't think it applies here. That sounds a bit like you've lost your temper. Sorry man, calm down. I thought martial artists were meant to be controlled? Obviously having a short fuse is part of your training? In all seriousness if I had thought that I would have taken you up on it. I haven't got that impression from you at any point, I'm just trying to have a debate with you. I think you may be trying to make me lookd bad, probably in order to make yourelf look better. A cheap trick. And I thought you didn't do dirty fighting? (That last bit was a joke BTW). No I think that's yourself you're describing. But fair enough you're entitiled to your opinion. Eh?
Were not alot of the traditional MAs used on the battlefield where it was life and death? I know some JJ and some Karate was. I think if that was the case the original masters of these arts would be proud of a good eye gouge or nostril pull. These "dirty tactics "were most certainly part of the curriculum and I know are even still part of the kata in some karate styles(an eye gouge anyways). They have probably just been filtered out through the ages. Would I use dirty tactics? Yes if it was a self defense situation, i wouldnt think twice about it. In the dojo or a tournament? No they dont belong there. Just my opinion. BTW I fail to see how being insulting to others furthers ones argument.
No. Very few modern "traditional" martial arts were ever used on battlefields. Ju Jitsu was as a secondary "oh crap I've lost my weapon and someone is trying to cleave me in two with a sword" art. Much like modern army combatives, it was a last resort. Karate, to my knowledge, was never a battlefield art. It was used for civil protection and patroling (again as a back up). But that's a very different thing. - Matt
The controversy in this is that in JJ you are trying to work a position. You will work from the mount, guard, or side and that works great for UFC rules because when you try to work on an opponent you blatently expose vitals that are considered illegal in the rules. That is why JJ rules the octagon. Other people aren't saying that JJ is crap, we know it rocks everything in UFC, but the arguement is that it is better to be a standing striker in a street confrontation instead of shooting someone to the ground. The arguement is about street self defense. This is a huge reason people start into martial arts, self defense. Certainly knowing JJ will only help you in the UFC and on the street. But there are so many negatives for taking a street fight to the ground that I would rather be standing up and bash the opponent's brains out with my fists, feet, elbows, and knees. I guess alot of guys are frustrated at pure BJJ guys that focus on nothing but it, striking is secondary at best, and everything is "ground and pound" to sound tough. When you are working a choke, a smart adversary will grab your other wrist to prevent you from locking the choke in. I can wait all day while you choke me with one forearm. In the street, they won't be working their position or grabbing at your wrist. They will target your groin, eyes and throat.... you don't want someone bleeding all over you either... and you aren't in a position to engage anyone else that wants to jump into the fight. You have to use a stand-up striking approach on the street, rely on JJ if it goes to the ground (which will rock for you).. Even the stand-out UFC ground guys have a wicked striking game. Look at Tito Ortiz! Look what happened to Gracie when he went against Hughes.. Knowing the techniques isn't everything, physical conditioning is so much more. That fight set a new precedent in the martial arts community. The arm-chair master and mysticism of martial knowledge and experience doesn't mean anything when you fight someone that has you beat in speed and power. It's like a champion race car driver behind the wheel of a very crappy car against a new driver with a great speed car. Experience only matters when you can force it upon your opponent. Hughes has a great ground game and Gracie couldn't work him down and pound him like someone with no ground game. (something he used to do all the time to say BJJ was better than other styles that had minimal ground work) BJJ is king in the cage, not in real fights.. Even if I was the top BJJ'er out there, why would I want to take a street fight to the ground and struggle against someone that could have a pocket knife and be striking at my vitals while I work him for chokes. No thanks, I'll just use my strikes and end it quick.
Elektro: Sorry, we're moving away from the topic and starting to discuss semantics. My points were not to name styles I don't think are fantastic. It was to bring forth the point that when some styles actually TEACH eyegouging etc. as a tactic INSTEAD of a proper technique (yes I say a PROPER technique) I think something is wrong. I haven't said that submissions cranked hard is very pretty. You can control an armbar. You can't control an eyegouge. I'm not a fan of the brutal maiming "do whatever it takes" martial artist. That's usually just nonsense from people who have no clue. I don't know if you'll understand where I'm coming from with that. Without instant knockout or demoralisation for him to stop the fight, when punching or kicking an opponent. Most actually clinch instinctively. In boxing, that's not allowed for too long a time. When people clinch in a "free" environment, like a regular fight, chances are someone will lose their balance. God forbid YOU lose your balance just by accident. Taking people down on purpose to finish the fight IS an option if there is no risk of being stomped. Of course, no situation is the same and discussion this is mental masturbation at best. Sadly, watching the UFC does not a grappling master make. Gracie was never top of the pops. In fact he was chosen by Rorion because he was young, not exactly a body builder and he didn't have a lot of fight experience. He wanted to show the world that it was the style, not the man. The Gracie example is old and worn. The Gracies were pioneers of the art and are for sure someone to be respected, but they are FAR from top of the pops any more. Hughes proved that a seasoned experienced MMA record is better than clean BJJ from an old fighter from a different time in MMA history.. Amazing. We never knew. It's not like this has been the norm the last 12 years or anything. Now... The parts I've bolded presents a conundrum to me, a riddle if you will. First off. When I choke complete newbs who have never done JJ before, their reaction is to reach up and grab that choking arm. This is instinctual for all human beings, because without air or blood to your brain, you are not doing anything. A RNC can be set and done in 4-5 seconds. What kind of choke are you performing from the front? Seeing as the most dominant position to strive for is the backmount and most chokes come from there. How exactly do you propose the deadly eyegouges and groin strikes? Does he strike your groin with his buttocks or lower back? Same thing goes for the second part. But let's consider the second mental masturbation image: You are fighting someone with fisticuffs. The fight goes into grappling, you both go to the ground. NOW HE SUDDENLY DECIDES IT'S TIME TO PULL OUT THE TRUSTY OLD POCKED KNIFE. He had a knife, not using it in the fight until you grapple with him? Really? Is this just what I mentioned earlier? Mental masturbation with any serious root in reality or experience. We can speculate all we want on the worst possible outcomes of streetfights. I'm not planning on having any in the near future. If someone attacks me I will do what I do best and get the hell out. Your post is a long post of not really much at all. First you say you'd just own your opponent standing hell yeah. Then you point out that if someone is better than you... well then you can't grapple ftw because they'll just be faster and stronger. Hell doesn't that apply for punching and kicking too? Oh yeah, I forgot it's YOU doing it, not JJ guys. The argument is about self defence. Self defence = friends, places, awareness, maybe weapons. This will protect you 99% better than any martial art. The discussion centered around the use of MA for self defence. I believe it can be used for self defence. I don't believe the use of particular moves outlawed in say for example vale tudo competitions will make the outcome extremely different if you are skilled at what you do. It has been tried and tested but people will simply not believe that. In fact many won't believe it until they try it themselves and find themselves completely dominated. But then of course we can make a million excuses. JJ in the UFC Jiu-jitsu in the UFC does not rule everything. Royce killed people who weren't trained on the ground in the first UFC's. Jiu-jitsu then completely stagnated. BJJ people in MMA couldn't do anything because people learnt just enough of it to keep themselves from being easily submitted. This went on for a while and when things finally started clearing up, many other styles and methods, judo, sambo, wrestling were just as useful in a MMA situation. This doesn't mean BJJ sucks though. It simply means that other arts are good as well. And in MMA you need the best of the best in all ranges of the fight. Physical conditioning is a large part of everthing in the world you use your body for. But that argument can be turned around very easily. Watch: You should train to learn better technique. Because there will ALWAYS be someone stronger, there will always be someone faster. The better your technique is, the better it balances strength/speed. This is not to say physical conditioning isn't important.. But it is in everything. So should everyone quit MA's and take up weightlifting? No, without technique that power means next to nothing. There's too much back and forth, to much sketchy info. Too much mental masturbation of "what if he does this or that" and pointless imagination to fill gaps of how some random thug would completely destroy a trained fighter or how friends from all over the world will jump in and throw you in lava etc. There's just too much talk. The only reason I'm bothering to type all this is because I'm bored.
If you are bored fanatical, answer my post back on page 3. What do you define as a dirty trick? To a boxer, taking someone down and applying a rnc is seen as a dirty trick. Just because something doesn't fit your blinkered view of what is a martial art doesnot mean everyone else is a moron. I'll use one of my examples again as you seem to be discussing "self-defence". If I were to be threatened and used a pre-emptive strike to avoid a brawl, perhaps led by a distraction technique, would that be a "dirty trick" or a valid "technique" taught in a valid martial arts school? Would I be a moron for using it because I can't fight?
Not to my knowledge, most passes involve keeping your groin close to your opponent's body and out of effective striking or grabbing range and also keeping your head out of the range of their hands. I doubt that even the best BJJer would take a fight to the ground in a self defense situation. However, if someone else tackled them, they'd be the person walking away from it. Which muscle group could be used here to escape this choke? Since you would be reaching over your back and ontop of your head to grab their wrist, the strength of the muscles you're using are weaker than the strength of the muscles your opponent is using. Besides even without the hand on top of your head, once your opponent grabs their bicep, the choke can be applied by simply squeezing their elbows together, the second hand is not required. 3-7 seconds and you pass out. How could you possibly attack your agressor's groin or eyes from this position? You can't see either of them. Besides, there are plenty more chokes than just the RNC and each one has a different method of escaping it. Exactly! That's what I'm talking about. Nothing can make defending against a weapon easy. Also, grappling is required to disarm your opponent's weapon, no matter what art you study. I agree that taking a fight to the ground at this point would be completely stupid and I doubt any sane BJJ practitioner would even attempt it. Best idea is to get [] out of there quick.
It's a technicality, but Shui Jaio is a kung fu, and it's entirely grappling/throwing based. I didn't mean it as "he's trying to hurt me, and I'm just trying to rub on him." I was trying to illustrate that our intents differ. I'm trying to go down one route, and he's thinking about several. It's not that his way is better, just different. The other guy was right in saying that doing what we do full contact with gear would take away from the benefit of the exercise. The benefit of the exercise is in acknowledging that things like groin strike, smashing a head into the concrete are there. I can usually keep myself safe and have even submitted him while tries to use dirty-ish techniques. It's part of a learning process though. The first time we actually got on the ground and played, I was on the receiving end of a "groin strike" (didn't really take it, but it was there), a few strikes, and some getting my head hit on the pavement, face grabs, and that type of thing. On the other hand, he was on the receiving end of some sweeps, he got mounted, etc. . . . I'm not defending anything really . . . I just think that your comment about how any martial art that practices anything dissimilar to your own personal practice is a moronic art is hands down ridiculous and closed minded. You further illustrate your ignorance of that type of practice with your comments, especially by reducing the strategies of arts with "dirty" tactics down to squeezing someone's balls or gouging someone's eyes. Arts that train eye gouges teach them in much the same manner as BJJ'ers train an armbar. They are part of the sum total. They teach how to use eye gouges, how to set them up, how to defend against them, and all of the other necessary elements that make those techniques effective: range, footwork, etc . . .
Sorry if I've missed something that's already been said, I jumped in halfway through here. No, it doesn't. It hasn't done for years. Well rounded fighters rule the octagon now. You'll be a damn sight better at getting back to your feet if you learn groundfighting, whether it's the street or the ring. I agree that pure BJJ isn't the best idea for self defence, but I still believe groundwork is very important. Then why don't you go down to your local BJJ club and show everyone how you can't be choked out because all you have to do is grab their forearm. You'll start a revolution in submission grappling. The best way to avoid this is to learn how to get to your feet. I.e. learn groundfighting. I disagree. If I'm only fighting one guy I reckon I have a much better chance of winning on the ground because he's unlikely to be a skilled submission grappler. This isn't a new precedent, strikers have been cross-training and winning in MMA for years now.
Why has this turned into a BJJ/MMA discussion? Tito & Hughes are not "wicked" strikers by any stretch of the imagination. They are wrestlers that have cross trained & utilised better groundwork & positioning to dominate opponents. This is off subject however. I still want to know what people (looks like fanatical is sin-binned) consider a "dirty trick"?
More to the point, it's turning into a discussion on combat versus competition. As we all know, the two have little to do with each other. People are posting and not knowing where they stand. (i.e. if this is about competition jujutsu or Goshin (Combat if you like) jujutsu. A dirty trick in BJJ would be an "Oil check" (sticking your index finger up your opponent's bum) which reflexively makes your opponent let go and make distance as quickly as possible. Another would be "Stink thumb" - putting your thumb up your rectum & sticking it under his nose, into his eye or in his mouth. Then there is "**** hands". Use your imagination. :Angel: However, in combat, there are no dirty tricks, just getting the job done as quickly as humanly possible. Koryu jujutsu kata shows this, with techniques for ambushing, attacking from behind & attacking unarmed & armed opponents with weaponry.
One big mistake people are making is trying to play a game of martial arts "top-trumps". "My eye gouge beats your ground game" "My groin shot beats your guard" "My wrist grab beats your choke" Doesn't work like that. Individual techniques cannot "trump" whole spheres of fighting (ie the ground). Techniques work WITHIN spheres of combat not against them. You eye gouge someone on the ground?...well get this...YOU'RE GROUNDFIGHTING!! You stop a choke on the ground?...YOU'RE STILL GROUNDFIGHTING!! (although if you were better at it you'd be the one doing the choking) Why does no one say that dirty tactics can beat a fighter stood up? Because it sounds ridiculous right? People know that to land an eye gouge or groin shot stood up you need to train some movement, foot work, timing, accuracy, form, do it against resistance, work out counters etc etc etc. In short practice the damn things you expect to use. Why people think that these things don't need training on the ground is beyond me. They all still apply. If all it takes to win a fight is to eye gouge someone or bite them why spend so many years becoming a 3rd degree black sash in Wing Chun (for example)? Just poke 'em in the eye or punch 'em in the nuts. According to the critics of groundfighting it is that simple. Isn't it?
I think it's anything that falls outside of the rules of the engagement one is in. A leg kick in boxing would be considered a dirty trick. An eye gouge would be a dirty trick in in a grappling match. A headbutt would be considered a dirty trick in a thai boxing match. A groin kick would be considered a dirty trick if you got into a fight with your drunk friend. A bottle over the head would be considered a dirty trick in a college fistfight/brawl. etcetera
Agreed. So really, outside the context of a fight within any ruleset, there is no such thing as a dirty trick. I think for this discussion we have to ignore any sporting element (eg BJJ or Thai Boxing) as a "dirty trick" in that has a different implication - ie can you get away with it or will you get disqualified? PASmith, i agree with you and that "dirty tricks" are applied within the particular area of fighting (be that on the ground, stood up, halfway between the two...). IN fact I would go so far as to say that there is no such thing as a "dirty trick". If it works in the given situation and it gets the job done use it. After all we are talking about "fighting". You still need to learn how to fight stood up, or on the floor first. The "dirty tricks" are just techniques.
No - that's "****y shirt" as demonstrated in the Jackie Chan ? Film ? - the one about the cops? Can't remember. Anyway it's used for escaping from jail.
FINALLY!!! There is no such thing as "dirty fighting" in a combat situation. Therefore in a combat situation, the question "what would win, dirty tactics vs. grappling" is null & void. Apart from the fact that pitting style against style in theory is more or less impossible.
The problem comes when people use "dirty tactics" as an excuse not to learn how to grapple on the ground (and by grappling I mean how to move and fight on the ground, not becoming a "grappler" per se). Or they tell someone else that they don't need to learn grappling because a good old punch in the balls or poke in the eye will see them through any ground encounter. "Dirty tactics" are used as a form of blinkers that stop people seeing the true nature of fighting and also the myriad of options that MA has to offer. Poking someone in the eye as a your technique of choice on the ground just shows up a lack of imagination to me.
