Dim Mak in BJJ

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by mattt, Jun 1, 2013.

  1. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    So, as some of you might know I am a classically trained ninja who dabbles in BJJ.

    I recently have been playing around with pressure points in BJJ and actually having quite some success- no death touch yet, but no doubt it's soon to happen.

    What do other people think of using nasty pressure point techniques in BJJ within its rule system?

    The start could be a strong crossface. Or pushing your fist through to access an Ezekiel choke.

    Ones we played with recently were driving the forehead/crown into face or temple to get the head to turn, break structure and facilitate the pass. I also found the head instrumental in controlling standup... Not actually butting someone but connecting and pressing very hard to get their balance and for kuzushi.

    Are you guys also on the path to Dim Mak BJJ dominance or am I alone?
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you

    - press your thumb into your opponent's forearm 1 inch away from his elbow joint and right between the dark side and the white side, you will get some interest result.
    - use your knee to kick the inside of your opponent's upper leg, you will find an interest point too.
  3. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Oh yeah I love it. That's the main thing I learned from CACC - directing and creating movement via painful leverage.

    Working your side control and scarf hold so it's a chest compression (maybe 10% of the time it works as a sub on someone my size, rest of the time it demoralizes and gasses the guy)

    Bulgarian facelock

    Butterfly Bulgarian facelock (usually a sub but have taken the back from guard bottom with it lots, once in competition)

    Knuckles in the temple and hollow behind the jaw to start a crossface.

    Elbow "pops" between the vertebra to break up the turtle,
    in the sternum to posture up in guard,
    in the sternum to get the uke on his side for 1100 armbars from side control.

    Shin riding the brachial artery in side control as a transition (not much of a pin- it'll hold them but they wig out)

    Shin riding the inside of the shin during a guard passing fight (to either sub or get him to feed his other leg into a leg-ride)

    Nailing the hand to the ground with the point of your elbow to get it unstuck (maybe a kimura fight)

    Elbow popping the hollow of the shoulder below the clavicle to break up a kimura defense.

    Tons of other stuff out there but those are mine.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Ouch :evil:

    I still recall seeing maybe an early Gracie fight and the announcer calling out the headbutts Gracie was using during the match. They also liked to hit the back of the head (brain stem), floating ribs, and kidneys... as I recall. And that was just the obvious stuff :eek:

    I think I will hide in a punching bag where it is safer from you grapplers.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    "Ripping" in CACC - Wade Schalles used a very similar concept in his Amateur Days and called it "Legal Pain" or "Legal Discomfort"

  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    "pressure points" no, leverage and using applied pressure to control and break structure yes.

    edit - I do have a small toolbox of dirty tactics I use when training MMA groundwork with the other long termers, my favourite is from back control putting a hand over the mouth and nose to get their defensive hands moving.
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You can also get the effect of a lot of small "pressure point hits" by being relaxed and rapidly rubbing the elbow, forearm, shoulder, or knuckles over the area. Much the same feeling as shucking or to be used with shucking.
  8. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I don't think you want to rub people during BJJ. Or talk about 'shucking.'
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    And here I am just trying to devolop active hips and a decent crushing top game.

    Ill leave the rubbing to mat battle types.

    dictionary says 'shucking' -

    Take off (a garment): "she shucked off her nightdress".
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  10. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Yeah, not sure that would work. The ones we are doing come with full force, grinding with as much muscle as possible, taking a solid lump- like your head, elbow, or knee and pushing it through with all your might.
  11. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    We were discouraged from shucking in rolling because we wanted to work on technique, but otherwise, a lot of the wrestlers would use shucking and I picked it up from them. The definition of shucking as I understood it in the context of wrestling came from the motion used to remove the husk or shuck an ear of corn.

    Not used much when on the ground but more used to set up takedowns and to help escape some holds while kneeling or standing.

    The rubbing part wasn't probably the best choice of words, but I guess what I was saying is constant contact. Normally when you shuck, there creates distance and some contact is lost. When the contact is regained, you can have the opponent run into an elbow, knuckle, knee, etc. At that point of contact, rather than driving it directly into the opponent, you move it around in a small fast circle as you drive it in. That is what I meant.

    Edit: the goal is not to make them move by pain, although it can hurt, but because of the fast circular motion, the opponent will have a very hard time adjusting to it. Their body will move because they can't adjust fast enough to counter.
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Don't forget that a wrestler will seek the pin as much as the submission so many "pain"'holds are designed to move you to such a pin - in a BJJ context they are less useful when viewed in this way
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I suppose yes, but I was not referring to pain holds but more so that an opponent has a hard time adjusting to rapid small movements. The shucking provides a rapid back and forth, relaxed movement kind of like a shaking wave, but shucking is linear. The addition of fast small circles to the shucking makes it very hard for the opponent to adjust even more so.

    Anyway, this type of movement is used in Aikido where you have the linear wave combined with small fast circles to unbalance.

    On a related note: The whole idea of smashing someone with your head is useful for escaping, like a headbutt to counter a triangle choke, but the principle of constant pressure (pressure being pounds per square inch) is a fundamental. The head is pretty big, it would be more in lines with my BJJ training to use something smaller, like a shoulder into the carotid artery. Or a better example, I would not put my chest over my opponents face and apply the majority of my weight on this because my chest is spreading out the force over a larger area (similar to what you are saying about pinning in wrestling). If I were to put my chest over my opponent's face, I would place my forearm behind my opponent's head and lift his head up into my chest while I roll on my side, this would allow me to apply pressure to pin one of his shoulders with my body weight. The pressure on the shoulder is greater because it is a smaller area.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    As a first option, that is a terrible counter to a triangle choke, it gives up base and posture, which if they can shoulder walk and frame will place you deeper into the choke.
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Fusen, you got me researching different counters to triangle chokes. I found a few that have you posture up as the first defense and I really like those.

    I also found the triangle choke counter that I was taught or something very close (don't remember the slide back part, or maybe I just been doing it wrong and getting away with it). Anyway, maybe this isn't the best way to counter a triangle choke but just so we are on the same page, here is a video of the technique:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vOZhDtIruk"]How To Perform Bas Rutten's Escape From A Triangle Choke - YouTube[/ame]

    Where the head butt can come, you probably can see.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  16. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Nope. You can win bjj by pinning too... Most of the guys I roll with have from some to lots of Wrestling experience and me and those who don't still seek the pin.

    Positional dominance first, subs come later
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    That's not a "win" though is it? In a wrestling match it is over in 10 seconds if there is a pin...even if a BJJ guy scores a "pin" that quick there is still four minutes 50 seconds of a match left. That was the distinction I was making
  18. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Yeah, but you can still win with a pin, just the timelimit is different... But more to the point the pin and positional control is more important than the sub, because you cannot finish a sub without positional control (unless you use one of my deadly ninja tricks of course)
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I think we may be arguing different points...and there is a HUGE difference in time scale with the respective pins

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