Different Sword MAs

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by potlucky10, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Deleted
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2009
  2. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    No, Kogusoku.....actually it has not been dealt with. So far the discussion recognizes that there are two spheres of investigation: the experiential and the intellectual. What has NOT been discussed is the inter-relationship between the two spheres themselves.

    We can discuss the experiential aspects of Western practices by folks who have experienced them.

    We can discuss the experiential aspects of Eastern practices by folks who have experienced them.

    We can identify written matter on both practices and we can even report that one sphere is an adjunct to another.

    But noone has actually characterized what that relationship is, what it can be accepted to accomplish what the limits are for each, what the criteria for veracity is and so forth.

    Now, its been made clear to me in other threads that, culture aside, there are universal principles across all forms of sword. Fine. If that is true then those principles ought be able to extend, not only across the experiential plane for all sword, but also the intellectual plane for all sword and ultimately demonstrate the relationship between these two planes as well.

    OR

    Perhaps its time to admit that all this talk about universal sword principles is a construct put together in order to grant this or that individual an aura of greater understanding than they might actually have. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    OK....now here is a case where I am sure that I have answered your question. I hope you won't expect me to call your comprehension into question, 'kay?

    I am gathering that when you speak of "classical" you are speaking of Pre-Occupation practices yes? Or are you starting from Post-Occupation and going backwards?

    If you are starting with Post-Occupation, I have already given you the four sources that contribute to Modern Classical Korean Sword including Pre-Occupation sword, Japanese Military Sword, Japanese Kendo, and Japanese Police sabre.

    If you are starting with Pre-Occupation practices "classical sword is embodied in the MU YE TOBO TONG JI (1795), MU YE JEBO (1759), BONKUK GEOM BEOP (1568) and CHOSON SEBEOP. Thats the major documatation.

    If you are interested in the experiential then its a matter of identifying my teachers and trusting that they are teaching what they say they are teaching, and that they learned from the people that they said that they learned from, which, I suppose is the same thing anyone from any other tradition must do, right? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  4. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Yes...... but we are still left with the matter of what it takes to discuss and critically evaluate sword across a number of traditions.

    Can people of disparate practices and traditions discuss sword based on universal principles and come to common understandings or will there always be the "backdoor out of a tight spot" by saying "well, you won't be able to understand it unless you train in it exclusively for a number of years with my teacher." Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  5. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Check out western and eastern swordsmanship thread. On that we do just that discuss the two approaches posting photos and videos to show the principles discussed.


    regards koyo
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    We have been discussing this issue on a number of threads on this sub-forum for quite some time. So we know it can be done successfully. It was you who came here and said we cannot evaluate YOU because we don't do Korean swordsmanship.

    The Bear.
     
  7. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    You stated a list of titles for Japanese swordsmanship. You were told that just reading won't do, since you won't be able to understand the more internal & physical differences.

    You responded with a rather bad analogy to using a car users manual and a military field text in comparison to swordsmanship texts. That was explained to you (If you don't have the proper instructor to teach you combative principles, owning a field manual won't help you survive in a combat situation.) Basically, if a teacher has texts on his school's arts written out, he usually (in the case of classical Japanese martial arts, I can't say for WMA, have no experience of that field just yet unfortunately.) makes sure that what is written can only be understood by someone initiated and trusted.

    (e.g. in Kukishin-ryu one densho I was shown had certain kata say in archaic Japanese "step forward with the left foot" which actually meant to those who were initiated, "step back with the right foot". It sounds strange, but that's the way things work sometimes in koryu. There are no absolutes.)

    Something that is both experiential and yet at the same time intellectual.

    Yes in essence there are sword forms with basic underlying principles of movement and physics. Human nature really - Finding the most efficient way of doing things.

    So why didn't your swordsmanship tally with those principles when put under scrutiny?

    Hmm, veiled attack hinting at the egotism of others when you are felt to be misunderstood. :rolleyes:

    Very polite yet....
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2009
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Agreed.................... but in that venue there is a point at which people cross the line and make judgements. What I found was that there was simply not an exchange of information. What I found that folks were anxious to deride or discount one practice in deference to another.

    Given that in this INTERNET world it is not often possible for people to get on the mat and make their points we are left to use an intellectual approach and my prodding has to do with how much credence we can give such an approach. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  9. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    You found that on the eastern western sword thread????
    I found quite the opposite with us naming principles from one art and being answered by yes we do that and it is called "master cut, bind" or whatever.

    Did you read the thread??? There over a hundred posts and NO ONE is attempting to score points.

    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2009
  10. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    No....Bear...... that is not what happened.

    Matt asked for someone in Japanese sword to evaluate.

    You didn't have background in Japanese sword (or Korean for that matter) but immediately judged the material as "nonsense".

    You can evaluate all you want based on your background and from your POV. Thats fine. But its pretty arrogant for someone to come along and discount an entire artform with no background in that artform, doncha think? How about if I discount everything that you do with your friends because you are unable to preform a sword form up to a particular standard? Would be quite fair, don't you agree?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Actually bear studied japanese sword for quite a few years before moving on to western sword.

    Again..did you read the western easter sword comparrison thread??

    If you did you may understand why some were questioning the way you demonstrated on the video (not the entire artform). Some of the fundamentals of sword eastern and western were absent from our perspective.

    regards koyo
     
  12. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    "...................

    Hmm, veiled attack hinting at the egotism of others when you are felt to be misunderstood.

    Very polite yet....



    Thanks, Kogusoku.....but before we go much farther can I ask that you not intepret my posts back to me. First off, I assume that we are adults and that we are not about "hinting". I don't do "hinting". And, if you start spinning my threads it will just slow things down. What I stated in my post is a simple fact of Life here on the INTERNET. Start making assumptions about what I am thinking or what my motives are and we are simply going to get derailed, right?

    "..........................

    So why didn't your swordsmanship tally with those principles when put under scrutiny?
    ............................"

    Hmmm..... let me see if I have this right.

    You folks looked at a video----

    of five beginning Korean forms

    which you freely admit that you have no experience with------

    bump that beginning material up against a criteria that you have constructed and which admittedly is intended to serve your purposes-----

    Then draw a conclusion and want to know what is wrong with the practice that I do?

    Would it be fair to trun this around and recall what Neil said about what he saw in the videos he veiwed of your practice?

    Now, tell me something........ are you actually interested in having an intelligent discussion..... or is this just one long effort on your part to be right about something?
    You may not mean to do this, but the message that you seem to be giving is not that this is so much a discussion or an exchange of information as much as its a matter of identifying people who don't do what you do and rake them over the coals or put them on the defensive about what they do.

    My sense is that we are about to step over a line I would rather not step over. All the same, it may be worthwhile that I don't view what I study or practice as mere fodder for your public derision. I think you would feel the same way about your stuff, yes?
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Sorry Bruce but the criteria were constructed by master swordsmen western and eastern.Not any of us.

    My hope is to make "one long effort on my part" to have my training confirmed or bettered by swordsmen from numerous schools..nothing more.



    regards koyo
     
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    That's fine, Koyo..... just as long as you realize that the first sentence of your post serves the second sentence of your post..... and that the idea of "confirmed or bettered" is determined by yourself and your fellows. Without that admission to yourself you run the risk of representing that you practice some sort of "ultimate truth" and that all other arts, practices, traditions and heritages are somehow "downhill" from you.

    In the end, what occurs is that other people stop seeking to engage you in discourse as I don't know anyone who enjoys having years of study and practice relegated to the dustbin even if at the sayso of "master swordsmen western and eastern".

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Funny, we have Koryu people, Aikiken people, Western martial arts people and Chinese Martial arts people agreeing principles and then we have you Bruce who doesn't agree.
    We aren't discussing your art, we are discussing a practioner in a particular video. Just happened to be you. So unless you consider yourself the paragon of your art then I don't see why you are taking this stance. I don't talk for anyone elses German longsword, I speak for mine. I critised YOUR video not Korean swordsmanship. I still stand by those observations.

    The Bear.
     
  16. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thats not just disingenuous, but its also wholly inaccurate. What makes it worse is that you already know that its inaccurate. Seems as though you have foundering about since you made your first grandiose statement and your primary tactic is characterize me in some unflattering light rather than admit that you mis-spoke.

    What we both know is that I have agreed to the concept of what you purport to be about. What I DON'T agree with is what you think your purported activity authorizes you to do or entitles you to represent. I have no doubt that all of those "Koryu people, Aikiken people, Western martial arts people and Chinese Martial arts people" finally came around to admitting that what you said was right and what they did was incorrect, yes? Perhaps you'd like to inform me of how many "principles" you wound up admitting were "better", "more accurate", sustainable or ???? over your own were taken from practices not yours?

    I think what you may have failed to grasp is that the manner in which you are dealing with this entire subject is not new to me. In the KMA I know of precious few leaders who don't aspire to each being the big fish of their own small pond..... and continually represent their pond as being larger than it is. All you seem to be doing with me right now is the same sort of "fencing" rather than discussion. As I mentioned previously, I don't get the idea you are about information as much as you are about "winning" and "losing". I would try to convince you that MA is more than that...... but I just don't have those sorts of exchanges any more. Life's too short.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I am sorry to say that the bear DID WHAT I TOLD HIM during aiki ken training and did not at all attempt to turn me to HIS interpretation just as I would DO AS I AM TOLD at a western sword class taken by the bear.

    I think that you feel you are being attacked personaly rather than having the opportunityto have your video critiqued by other swordsmen.

    I personally have no problem with kendoka saying your elbows are out during shomen that is asking to be struck in the forearm no problem ..I fixed it.I have not posted any videos BUT there are countless photos and explanations on threads such as aiki ken bokken basics and anyone is welcome to look at them and any comments shall be addressed.

    regards koyo
     
  18. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Well don't make such comments and then threads won't be derailed. Simple enough, yes?

    When you start making assumptions about certain individuals' ego and experience, you leave yourself open to scrutiny.

    This comment has pretty much compelled me to review the video of your swordplay again.

    1. Your beginning forms looked more like suburi renraku waza (basic sword cuts in combination).

    2. I see blatant over cutting, over use of the upper body rather than the hips, leading to a bent over posture.

    3. The middle posture (Chudan/Seigan no kamae in JSA) is very similar to Japanese kenjutsu.

    4. The feet are not in alignment for cutting.

    I then noticed the caption on your video.

    I'm sorry, but with such malalignment, over cutting and bad posture, how can that be 5th dan standard?

    If there are videos out there of myself, please do offer your critique. It would be most welcome. I always need work on my techniques. I train three to four times a week and visit my teachers in Japan twice a year to make sure I am doing things right, but even then, I still feel that things need tweaking and improving.

    No, I merely offered logical reasons as to why certain media cannot be used as a reliable source of reference without proper experience and instruction. I stated that certain books are useless for the research you are doing without proper instruction, since there are a number of points that aren't open to the public without initiation.

    Of course, if you want to take some helpful guidance as arrogance, that's your perogative. I was talking from experience regarding texts I had to actually talk to people who did those respective systems when I lived in Japan to get a better insight.

    Merely owning Otake Risuke sensei's Deity & the Sword series, Watanabe's Shinkage-ryu series and a few others does not even scratch the surface of research. Search deeper.



    If you chose to talk to people rather than over them and side-stepping certain issues, I doubt you would have recieved the response you have had on this thread and over on the Kuk Sool Won department in various threads.
     
  19. Neil Gendzwill

    Neil Gendzwill Valued Member

    Just because the form is used for the 5th dan exam doesn't mean Bruce is performing it to 5th dan standards. In kendo we have to do kata #1 from 1st kyu to 8th dan, obviously the level of performance is increasing. Same in federation iaido, people do Mae for their whole life. So you can't judge the form by Bruce's performance of it, in fact I would say that his performance of it makes it difficult to judge the form.

    Similarly I earlier mentioned my reaction to watching HEMA videos. I try to reserve my judgement of what is being done there as a whole because usually the individuals performing are not that great to my eye.
     
  20. Neil Gendzwill

    Neil Gendzwill Valued Member

    Sorry, double post.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2009

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