It was meant as more of an evaluation. In kendo, 1 dan is about 2 years hobby training. Well as someone else in this discussion pointed out, there are only so many ways to swing a sword. There were at one time probably thousands of Japanese koryu around. I'm sure you can find what you're doing in some of them. Doesn't mean what you're doing is practical. There's a lot of fluff in the Japanese styles too, which came about during peace time when some of the instructors were trying to attract students. During wartime it was much more practical - "hold on to this end, pointy end in the other guy". Can open, worms everywhere. I'm not much of one for learning from books. Otake's book is cool and all, but in the end it's just a bunch of static photographs and not much more information on how to really do the stuff. And that was intentional on his part. If you want to learn TSKSR, you have to go find a teacher. If you want to compare it to what you're doing, you need to see it in action at least, preferably have some sort of understanding of it. My impression from reading various net stuff (BIG caveat - I haven't done anything resembling serious research) is that the real Korean stuff, whatever it was, is more or less lost. The stuff actively being practiced right now is either strongly Japanese influenced, or made up entirely, or in rare cases being reconstructed from not much info such as you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong please.
"............................... My impression from reading various net stuff (BIG caveat - I haven't done anything resembling serious research) is that the real Korean stuff, whatever it was, is more or less lost. The stuff actively being practiced right now is either strongly Japanese influenced, or made up entirely, or in rare cases being reconstructed from not much info such as you're doing. Correct me if I'm wrong please. ............................................." Your right, Neil, for about something in the neighborhood of 95% of the Korean sword practitioners. Easily 80% of the folks practicing Korean sword are practicing KUMDO or "Koreanized" Kendo right down to the sparring rules and traditional 10 kata. Another 15% are practicing things like HAEDONG KUMDO which is a reconstructed practice which began its life in the 1960-s. There are only about 5% Korean sword practitioners who train in original Korean sword and that is a mix of the various kinds of sword influences over about the last 150 years. The material I practice is a pretty good example of this. On one hand we can claim bragging rights to being more "Korean" than most, but even so the material is still mish-mash of sorts. Currently the only swordwork I know of that has made any direct claim to pre-Occupation material has been the SIB PAL KI material of Dr CHOI Bok-kyu and his teacher. The material for their practice has been sequestered away in the Christian mountains in Korea inwhat is essentially a community that originated as TONG HAK survivors. I have to do more digging in to this yet. Best Wishes, Bruce __________________
Yeah in Glasgow we have something similar but if I explained it to you I don't think you would believe it. Suffice to say that Glasgow is the edged weapon crime capital in the western world. The Bear.
"......................... I'm not much of one for learning from books. Otake's book is cool and all, but in the end it's just a bunch of static photographs and not much more information on how to really do the stuff. And that was intentional on his part. If you want to learn TSKSR, you have to go find a teacher. If you want to compare it to what you're doing, you need to see it in action at least, preferably have some sort of understanding of it............................" Thanks, Neil............. and that said there is probably another aspect of this conversation with which I could use some help....and it has to do with the role of written material as it relates to our understanding of MA traditions. What I have noticed over the years is that each time I raise the role of written materials regarding MA, inevitably someone mentions that one "can't learn MA from a book". I have heard this many times regarding the MYTBTJ, I have heard it a number of times regarding Chinese arts and, just now you reminded me of this fact yet again. And no matter how many time I state categorically that I have no intention to "learn a MA from a book" I continue to have people remind me of this. I would not make a point of sharing this except perhaps it would be of some service to know just exactly what people use books for regarding the MA. If we do not learn the art from books, what then are we using books for? In my own case, my original question was a matter of gleaning biomechanical cues which might help me understand the origins of this or that sword method. Am I to understand that books with pictures are no good for this? OK; thats fine. But what service then are books to provide to us? I am in the middle of doing research regarding the nature and sources of, and influences on Korean sword. I must report that the overwhelming numbers of Korean practitioners are abysmally ignorant of their native practices, and that those who are NOT ignorant are incredibly niggardly in divulging their information. I use books to gather information which the clannish nature of the MA does not allow people to impart readily. Am I to understand that books have no value in this regard? Sure, it would be nice if I could spend a lifetime with each and every MA tradition so as to learn their fine points first-hand. But absent that, am I to gather that books have no value? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
Bruce, You definitly bring out the best in others Matt, shame on you for setting Bruce up. Oh well, we learned alot about sword play did'nt we.
Indeed. I've met Kendoka who believed that a shinai accurately mimiced the handling characteristics of a katana. Obviously, they'd never handled a real steel weapon. When you're fencing with a piece of steel between 2-3.5 lbs, your centre of gravity is different, and a slighly wider stance is needed. Also, when you have to worry about pommel strikes, grappling and getting dumped on your butt, you have to be much more conservative in your footwork. While athleticism is important, jumping about is almost never the optimal strategy. We do have the "spring"; an explosive, jump-like attack, but it's not big up and down movement. When I fenced a 10-year kendoka, his attacks tended to get him in trouble when fencing with full body targeting and grappling. Binding at the tsuba got him grappled and hit. I was using a shinai as well with no crossguard. So my point is that it's not such a good idea to view combat-oriented and sporting arts through their opposite lenses for fair comparisons. If I were fencing under Kendo rules, I'd get hit a lot. If it came down to a fight with sharps, the advantage shifts to people who train to fight with steel weapons. Good post, Bear. Best regards, -Mark
The kendo master Shihan Nakakura who was to take over aikido from O Sensei trained in a form of kendo that allowed cuts to any part of the body and included throws but was NOT popular as a competative art outside of the few dojos that used it. I was told that after the war that kind of MARTIAL art was looked down upon by the Japanese government which was at pains to "stress a more spiritual approach". My kendo buddies here in Glasgow "play around" with the same approach but it has all but disappeared from modern kendo. regards koyo
Exactly Bill, I'm the first to admit we are along way from being good. Our fights are still too scrappy (but then fights are always scappy when you open them up). There is still a long road to walk but the difference is we aren't hiding behind a false sense of authenticity. We have no history to hide behind or political body who can legislate to the lowest common denominator. So when we're crap we own up to it and work to be less crap and die less often in freeplay. I think this is what happened to create modern mma and I think it is going to come to eastern and western sword arts. The Bear.
Using a book or watch a video do not teach you anything. But if you have an instructor, I believe that a book or video could be useful, but only in a minor way. There could be a number of other reasons for a book to be written.
The reasons why a number of books on Japanese swordsmanship are many. For some, it is to ensure that certain cultural points are remembered and to also state that kendo & iaido are not the only form of Japanese swordsmanship out there. There are older forms still extant. Other reasons; it's an aid to memory for people already initiated. A primer for those who want to know and proceed to study JSA. Some swordsmanship books state in their foreword as a warning that swordsmanship is something that you cannot learn from a book. Without witnessing it's movements and inner teachings first-hand, books on koryu kenjutsu will profit you nothing. It is more a tactile and hands-on study than just reading a book and thinking that there is a surface similarity. In koryu bujutsu (not just ken), Each ryuha has it's own thought process and "wabi-sabi" or flavour, for lack of a better term and has it's own particular stamp on how things are done (e.g. reiho, kirigata, kamaegata, etc.) and more importantly, psychology and mindset. It's a very important factor that isn't just picked up in text. It's something you experience, not read about. Example: I have never tasted the American beverage sasparilla (Honest to God!). Explain in text what sensations I am going to experience and approximate the flavour so that I can understand what it tastes like.
I don't think that there is a question about the experiential aspect of learning. The question I am asking is an intellectual one. Now, various arts have been writing their material down for a number of centuries. The Japanese have the scrolls of various RYU and the Chinese and Koreans both have thousands of works and memorials written over the last millenia. So am I to understand that all of these works are essentially "mnemonic devices"? In fact aren't ALL written works mnemonic to one extent or another? What shall we do with field manuals in the military? What about the Boy Scouts? What about automobile manuals? Electrician manuals? What about books on Dance, Yoga, Gymnastics and Acting? Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
I have all of Saito shihan's books on ken and jo. I also hold a teaching certificate in those weapons from saito shihan. I can use the books to remind me of individual kata. I have also seen students and "teachers" who have learned these katas from the books and there are countless mistakes in their performances especially in the "spirit" and blending of principles. If I were to see a "new" kata in a book it would be of little value to me if I had not been taught the basics skills personally. So books are a definate aid memoir to me. regards koyo
Yes and no, especially with koryu. You can't over generalize. A lot of koryu bujutsu densho are sometimes written in such a way that only initiated members of the ryuha can make sense of it. Also in some densho, there will be a reference to kuden (口伝 - Oral transmission ) which are as the translation indicates, passed through the ryuha from teacher to student and are sacrosanct. Different media and a different culture mate. For Yoga as a tradition, uh-uh. A teacher is still needed even from distance learning to touch base at least once in a while. Even military field manuals make no sense to someone who hasn't done military training. Also military manuals are nothing without combat veterans as instructors to teach you how to use the tactics realistically. You can mimic it, but without the proper training methods there, someone who knows and has done them properly will be able to tell.
I have the three original hard back editions of the Deity and the Sword katori shinto ryu. I showed them to Sekiya shihan a practisioner of Katori Shinto Ryu. he explained that what looked like scratchings and bird prints in snow scattered through the books explained foot movement that only a practisioner would understand PLUS photos were left out deliberately AND many of the "blocks" were actually strikes etc. Looking at pictures or even video..only one with experience can truly see what is going on. regards koyo
OK.... well and good..... so far I have not heard anything that I disagree with in either practice or theory. That still leaves us the role of written transmission with which to deal. Accepting, for a moment that we all agree that a person needs 1:1 relationship with a teacher to actually learn an art, can we agree that written material is, at least a common reference for inter-relating what we do, or is even that application suspect? In such a case, for instance, is it enough for people to look, say, at what I practice in order to appreciate it, or must each of you actually train with me for a few years? It seems to me that somewhere along the line we ought be able to communicate about what we do in (at least) gross motor skills, yes? In the case of those who practice European skills, is it absolutely necessary that one train in Japanese arts to appreciate those skills or is it possible to draw conclusions based on common steps, respect for balance and interval, or particular counters that follow a given defense? Please remember that a contributing factor to discussions like this are that there are certain generally accepted principles that are uniform to the use of sword around the world. If that is true I am not sure that one need always learn each and every tradition to appreciate it. However, if that is not true then we would need to agree that there are principles, but that they shift from one culture to the next. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
I found no problem at all in understanding Stolenbjorn and Langenswert's explanations of western swordsmanship principles simply because ALL of the major principles were similar they would have been identical if not for the difference of the katana to the longsword. However just a few practices with the longsword taught me much more.Knowledge is ONLY knowledge until it is put into practice. regards koyo
Are you talking just about cultures or between the koryu also? When I was don reading the book of five rings by Miyamoto Musashi I was left thinking 'dont we all'. But to train in Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu you would still have to find a legitimate sensei, because a book cant justify it. But why do you have a need to learn all and evry tradition? It is better to enjoy one than grossly flowing over many, is it not?
That has been dealt with. Read above. Well, looking into written works on swordsmanship, particularly classical Japanese swordsmanship do require such commitments, otherwise it's a profitless exercise. Certain ideals and principles can be gleaned, but not the whole system entirely. This has been stated in prior posts. For Korean swordwork. You're going to have to look at the history of it's country, which has been repeatedly glossed over & rewritten. As you have stated, you are a researcher. You have probably done such research. Historically, Japan made military incursions, invading Korea over four times. Each time, a little piece of it's culture was whittled away. Examples of this are Okinawan karate kata found in Korean martial arts, judo being adopted and called yudo & kendo being adapted to kumdo. What reliable information or documentation can you provide that what you are doing is truly classical Korean swordsmanship?
Thank God, I thought it was covered too. I was beginning to think I was losing the ability to follow the discussion but then I realised that Bruce virtually never answers any queries and just tries to obscure the discussion by misdirection and bombast. Thanks Kugo sanity restored ...... for now. The Bear.
