Did Yukio Tani actually teach Tenjin Shinyo-ryu?

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by nickh, Oct 7, 2006.

  1. nickh

    nickh Valued Member

    There are several jujutsu dojo in the UK that claim to be teaching Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu, but which looks very very far removed from the art being taught in Japan by Kubota-sensei.

    A large number of them claim that their lineages come from Yukio Tani, who was a famous judoka who travelled to the UK around the turn of the 20th century.

    Now, I have no doubt that these schools ARE telling the truth about their descent from Yukio Tani and that he WAS a successful fighter.

    But was he actually teaching Tenjin Shinyo-ryu jujutsu?

    Did he ever actually say he was teaching this ryu-ha? Was he a bona fide member of the ryu and with teaching licenses?

    It seems to me that quite a number of Japanese people were teaching early Kodokan judo in the west around the early 20th century, but calling it jujutsu. Back then, I believe judo was very different to the sport system we are all familiar with now and I get the impression that in those days judoka would use the words judo and jujutsu interchangably.
     
  2. cdnronin

    cdnronin Valued Member

    I would love to give you a straight answer, but this is not easy. When Tani(and Uyenishi0 were brought over from Japan by Barton-Wright, they were not memebers of the Kodokan. To my knowledge, Uyenishi never was, he returned to Japan prior to Kano's visits to England. In William Bankier's book Jiu Jitsu What It Really Is, he does refer to Uyenishi as being of theTenshin school.

    Yukio Tani is also supposed to have trained in Fusen-ryu, this leads to the Fusen-ryu is the basis of BJJ theory that is floating around.

    Yukio Tani was cross ranked by Kano as a 2nd degree black belt in Judo when Kano visited the Budokwi in the early 1920's, many years after Tani made his reputation as a fighter in the music halls of England.

    Confused? Welcome to the club.
     
  3. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    I always thought Tani did Kodokan Judo as well. I have the original "Art of Ju jitsu" book that features him doing all the moves, but its packed in a box somewhere. I'll try and hunt it out and see what it says.
     
  4. cdnronin

    cdnronin Valued Member

    Once Tani was the instructor at the Budokwai(and ranked by Kano), he taught Kodokan Judo. EJ Harrison makes it clear in The Art of Jiu Jitsu, Under The Auspices Of Prof. Yukio Tani that it is Judo that is being taught. If you can find a copy of the Game of Jiu Jitsu by Yukio Tani and Tara Miyake(1904?), it is not so clear as to what style is being taught.
     
  5. nickh

    nickh Valued Member

    Thanks for the replies.

    It just strikes me as odd that so many so called "Tenjin Shinyo ryu" schools in the UK are teaching something that looks nothing like the actual ryu-ha under Kubota-sensei and looks more like judo and a collection of self-defense tricks.
     
  6. Ghost Frog

    Ghost Frog New Member

    Awesome!! Another ju jitsu books geek!! :D

    Just wait till I get unpacked!
     
  7. cdnronin

    cdnronin Valued Member

    You can easily make a case for the opposite. Many jiu jitsu instructors were assimilated into the Kodokan, including Yukio Tani, G. Kozuimi and Kawaishi.
     
  8. cdnronin

    cdnronin Valued Member

    If you compare the techniques in books such as The Art of Jujutsu as practiced in Japan by Uyenishi, with the books of his first generation students, you will see a difference. To my knowledge, Uyenishi was not a member of the Kodokan, yet his book is oftenreferred to as an early example of Kodokan judo in the west. When you look at the books of his students(Longhurst, Collingridge), you will see a more self defense oriented theme to thier books. It has been suggested this may be to differentiate them from the previous generation's manual.

    Many of the original American instructors of ju jitsu had their training in Tenshin(O'Brien, Thornberry). Their books also present the techniques as a series of "tricks" or waza. Early examples of westernization? Easier to teach to Americans and Europeans?
     
  9. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    All the techniques I have seen demoed by Kubota Sensei here have been waza too..The difference comes in what is actually done in those forms..Tricks or anything else you like to call it should make no change to what is being done, and what is being taught, and yet that is precisely what is changed in these books...The waza shown there, whether more "self defense" orientated or not have little in common with what is (and was) taught as Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
    What evidence is there that the people you mention recieved their training in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu?I am aware that several foreigners have been trained...And their names all stand in the lists held by the Ryuha..Are they there? If not then what I would suggest that what they demonstrate in their books are waza that would best fit under the title "judo"...I would also suggest that much of what is passed off as "Tenshin Shinyo Ryu" isn't...And fits under the same banner as the books I mention above..
    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2006
  10. Lee Masters

    Lee Masters New Member

    Much has been said in the last several months concerning our Ryu Ha – Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
    For the uninitiated out there, exactly what is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu?

    This style of Ju-Jutsu originated in Japan and is regarded as a Koryu. It was founded by Iso Mataemon around 1830.
    The syllabus of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is taught and practised at 5 transmission levels. These being:
    Shodan, Chudan, Mokuroku, Menkyo and Menkyo Kaiden.
    These levels are taught in a progressive, systematic manner.

    The Shodan level of transmission
    The teaching comprises of four distinct kamae, Chokuritsu, Hira no Kamae, Itchi Monji no Kamae and Hira Itchi Monji no Kamae.
    The correct Reishiki which includes how to bow to the Sensei and the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu combat bow, the TSR kiai or shout (spirit coming together)which is different to most martial art forms in as much as the breath is taken inwards and downwards to the kikai tanden with the tongue assuming a specific position. During the course of the Shoden level of training the student would be taught how to wear the hakama and teppi which are worn traditionally in TSR at certain designated times, normally for formal demonstrations.

    The first set of katas that are taught are known as Te Hodoki (literally means hand escapes). There are 12 of these kata.
    My teacher Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke told me that traditionally these were taught within the first 3-6 months of the students training. They are the very fundamental techniques of the Ryu Ha and are used to test the student’s character. As to whether the Sensei teaches the student further is determined on how well he conducts himself during this process.
    We adopt this system in the Tenyokai U.K.

    Following the Te-Hodoki the next series of kata taught are the Shodan Idori. There are 10 of these, the first being ‘Shin No Kurai’. This kata originates in the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu from Yoshin Ryu as TSR has its origins in two older styles of Ju-Jutsu, namely the Yoshin Ryu and Shin no Shindo Ryu. The TSR version however differs slightly from the Yoshin Ryu as it contains more Atemi Waza which is traditionally known in TSR as ‘Sappou Jutsu’. Next in the Shodan transmission is the Shodan Tachiai series of kata, again there are 10 of these beginning with ‘Yuki Chigai’.
    When the student of TSR has become proficient in these kata he will receive a licence in the form of a Kiri Gami Menjo (cut paper). The Shodan level is the basic level and the Kiri Gami Menjo is not regarded as a teaching licence.

    The Chudan level of transmission
    Comprises of 28 katas, 14 are Idori and 14 Tachiai. The Chudan level is regarded as an intermediate level and contains many arresting-type techniques such as’ Hiki Tate’ from the Chudan Idori and ‘Tsure Byoshi’ from Chudan Tachiai These katas are the influence of the Shino Shindo Ryu as the founder of this style was a policeman.
    When proficient the student is again awarded the Kiri Gami Menjo (cut paper) with the official seals of the Ryu Ha.

    Mokuroku level of transmission
    Mokuroku literally means catalogue. At this level the student will be taught the ‘Nagesute’ which literally means to throw away or to dump. Nagesute comprises of 20 katas, all performed from Tachiai. These katas depart from the original katas of the Yoshin Ryu and Shin no Shindo Ryu as they were the direct creation of our founder Iso Mataemon, while in a meditative state at the Tenmangu Temple in Kyoto and during Muga Shugyo, travelling around the country challenging exponents of other styles of Ju-Jutsu.
    It is said that he never lost a contest but gained a lot of experience with this kind of austere training. The Nagesute Katas are designed to make the breakfall for the uke (receiver) very difficult to apply, also this series of katas are useful when fighting multiple opponents.

    Also at this level of transmission the student is introduced to ‘Sasoi Kappou’ revival and resuscitation methods.

    Menkyo level of transmission
    At this level another makimono licence is issued once the student has become proficient in the 24 katas of Shiai Ura and the 10 katas of the Gokui Tachiai, plus the teaching of the ‘Eri Kappou’.
    The Shiai Ura set of katas are designed with contest in mind and teach the student direct attacking methods with some devastating ‘Sappou Jutsu’ or more commonly known as Atemi Waza. There are also very clever reversal techniques against opponent’s attacks.

    The Gokui Tachiai Katas are, along with the Gokui Idori, regarded as the most advanced secretive levels of kata that are only taught to students who demonstrate a very high skill. The 10 Gokui Tachiai contain numerous ‘Sappou Jutsu’ techniques aimed to disrupt the nervous and arterial systems of the body as well as to cause injury to the internal organs of the body. Many of the Gokui Tachiai katas are highly technical in both the timing and entering on the opponent; examples of these are Tengu Shou and Tegane Dori.
    For Menkyo the practitioner also learns further revival resuscitation methods known as Eri Kappou.
    Regarding Kappou, my teacher Kubota Toshihiro is regarded as an expert instructor in this aspect and has taught many high ranking Judoka at the Kodokan, being himself a 7th Dan in Kodokan judo.

    Menkyo Kaiden level of transmission
    At this level the practitioner of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu has been taught and mastered everything there is in the syllabus. This includes the Gokui Idori 10 Katas and the 5 Kuden. The 10 Gokui Idori complete the 124 Katas of the syllabus. The last kata in this series is not only combative but has a symbolic meaning which was taught to me by Kubota Sensei and which I cannot disclose in such an article.

    Kuden
    In the techniques of the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu the Kuden comprises of five katas. These katas are taught as the ‘Okuden’ and are the last skills to be taught. They are taught by individual instruction only.
    These five techniques are not fighting techniques as such, they are however important concepts that once mastered can be applied when performing the 124 fighting katas of the Ryu Ha. Like all the techniques of TSR they should be performed with the concept of ‘Shi-Ki-Ryoku’. This concept was inscribed when the founder of TSR, Iso Mataemon died at 76 years of age in 1863, as it was a concept he emphasised when teaching TSR.

    Weaponry in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    The weaponry used mainly in TSR for practice purposes are the ‘Bokken, one long one representing the Katana and one short one representing the Wakizashi, or Daito and Shoto. However, the shorter bokken used can also represent the ‘Jutte’ which is regarded as the number one weapon in TSR.

    What is very important to realise is that the syllabus and teaching outlined here is not a figment of my imagination. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu,is well documented in Japan in the form of old makimono, densho and texts. Like most Koryu the teaching and syllabus never changes from generation to generation.

    As for Yukio Tani and ‘Raku’ Uyenishi, there is no evidence to suggest that they taught or practised TSR in this country. Extensive research suggests they had their origins in the Fusen Ryu Ju-Jutsu.

    Finally, I would like to finish by mentioning a small part of a Chinese scroll referring to the aim of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, given to my teacher Kubota Toshihiro by his teacher Sakamoto Fusataro when he passed on the mantle of the teachings of TSR.
    “If people try to resolve conflict using force, then opponents will respond in kind by fighting back with force. Nothing is to be gained by this”.

    I hope all of the above clarifies what Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is and that it helps all people who are genuinely interested in understanding what is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Ju-Jutsu.


    Paul Masters
    President
    Tenyokai U.K.
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Ju-Jutsu
     
  11. cdnronin

    cdnronin Valued Member

     
  12. Lee Masters

    Lee Masters New Member

    Thank you for your enquiry.
    On the 12/10/06 my father commissioned a group of us to form the Tenyokai U.K. Research Group for Tenjin Shinyo Ryu, which I lead.

    Our mission statement is simply “To research T.S.R. Ju-Jutsu in order to disseminate as accurately as possible a true reflection of our Ryu Ha”.

    Regarding Yukio Tani & ‘Raku’ Uyenishi, before this group was formed my father studied as many of the old textbooks he could find on Ju-Jutsu written either by them or their direct students.
    The fact is that he could find no evidence whatsoever to suggest that either of the above gentlemen practised or taught Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in this country but then neither, in all fairness, do they claim this. The techniques demonstrated in all of the textbooks were emphatically not TSR.

    We then searched further while training in Japan last year and I came across substantial articles in Japanese that state both Yukio Tani & Uyenishi came from Fusen Ryu. These were written by Yamada Minoru in relation to the history of Japanese Ju-Jutsu.

    We are now endeavouring to further research the source of his information. The articles are now not obtainable.
     
  13. cdnronin

    cdnronin Valued Member

    Thank you for your reply, Lee. I look forward to seeingwhatever information your group can unearth.

    In your opinion, all the American instructors of the early 20th century who claim lineage from Sensei Inouye of Nagasaki, would they also be considered to be not of Tenshin ryu?
     
  14. Lee Masters

    Lee Masters New Member

    What is your name cdnronin?
    Tenshin Ryu? Do you mean the Tenshin Ryu of Yabe Yaekichi?
     
  15. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    I think he means "Tenjin" rather than "Tenshin", there seems to be the belief that one is just as good as the other to use...And to a point they are correct..If you choose to use the version that is not used by the mainline..
    As for names, since this site doesn't require them automatically and his question is not rude I don't really see what relevance it would have to this debate..Other than possibly out of politeness to you Lee..
    Regards.
     
  16. Lee Masters

    Lee Masters New Member

    Ben

    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu not Tenshin Ryu as you know.I have since seen people now claiming to teach Tenshin Ryu who claimed it was Tenshin Shinyo Ryu originally,I'm confused :cry: .

    With regards to the name I personally just like to know who is asking me questions.

    kind regards
    Lee Masters
     
  17. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Hi Lee,
    Yeah, as you mention I can read Japanese and know what the name should be pronouced as..Even if I didn't know Japanese beyond simple kana there is enough books with furigana to tell me how it should be pronouced anyway..And I agree, there are too many people claiming feces rather than lineage and that pattern seems to be increasing..
    I would suggest holding some of the information back from sources such as this forum as it provides some ballast to lift pathetic claims onto a somewhat more knowledgeable level..Even if they don't do the techniques..
    And as for the name, I have no problem with my own name on my posts..I stand by what I say..If other people choose not to then it reflects upon them slightly..I might not share what I know as readily as I would with a good friend..They lose out from being impolite..
    Regards and good luck with your studies.
    Ben Sharples
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2006
  18. Lee Masters

    Lee Masters New Member

    Dear Ben

    We are aware of your point regarding information – but no need to be concerned. My father and I are in a better position than you regarding Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and what information to impart, don’t you agree?

    Over the last several months there have been many contributing to the debate of TSR, some accurate but many more not!

    Hence the last post by my father. He felt it was his duty to disseminate to all the forum readers a true and accurate reflection of what TSR really is. Also out of respect for his teacher Kubota Shihanke and all those teachers that went before him who passed on the true tradition of TSR.

    The information we impart is selective and deliberate and plagiaristic tendencies can be spotted like Exocet missiles – a mile away!

    Kind regards
    Lee Masters
     
  19. Lee Masters

    Lee Masters New Member

    Dear Ben

    We are aware of your point regarding information – but no need to be concerned. My father and I are in a better position than you regarding Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and what information to impart, don’t you agree?

    Over the last several months there have been many contributing to the debate of TSR, some accurate but many more not!

    Hence the last post by my father. He felt it was his duty to disseminate to all the forum readers a true and accurate reflection of what TSR really is. Also out of respect for his teacher Kubota Shihanke and all those teachers that went before him who passed on the true tradition of TSR.

    The information we impart is selective and deliberate and plagiaristic tendencies can be spotted like Exocet missiles – a mile away!

    Kind regards
    Lee Masters
     
  20. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Hi Lee,
    I do agree thoroughly, which is why I have never gone further than critisizing some morons attempts to pass something off as TSR when it quite obviously isn't. That and Japanese language I am very well able to comment on seeing as I am very familiar with both...I don't comment on the curriculum because I don't do it. That is your department, and I also agree that whatever you want to post online is not my problem, nor my concern,
    Good luck with it all..I know you hold a good enough house there.
    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2006

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