Did James Mitose, really go to Japan?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Feb 12, 2007.

  1. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Hi all,
    This has been discussed on other forums. Anyone want to discuss this?

    Kenpofist, looking forward to Jesus blessing this one also. :Angel:

    Gary
     
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    lol. nah, it's only funny so many times.

    but on topic, I've seen this discussed many times, and from what I know, this is nothing more than hearsay and it seems that IMO Mitose DID go to Japan, but learning some super secret family brand of Ke?po awesomeness he did not.
     
  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Yes I believe you might be right about the total awsomness not being there by him alone.

    It took others, they contributed also.
    Just think about it, what Chow had and what became American Kenpo (EP) and Tracy Kenpo and much of Kajukenbo also. At the Chow Memorial they demonstrated the Naihanshi. It was one of a few that were taught by James Mitose. All came from this man, and his starting of it in Hawaii. The more you see the more you know how close it is to what he taught and what is taught in hundreds if not thousands of locations around the world daily.


    Naihanshi:
    It is an old kata and not only known by Motobu as some would allow you to think. The streets in China were narrow and it was best to have your back to a wall and fight, perfect. When I was in China in the early 60's I was amazed at how narrow and small the streets were and the housing and doors.

    I am going to get permission from Ted (I hope so anyway) to post what he has so it will be seen by more. This should be a good thread if the agendas don't show up for a cause that is lost I might add...

    The old man Kata is one that is not so well known and then there is the Temple Kata (juniippo).

    The Naihanshi is seen in quite a bit of all the schools I have mentioned.
    It is one of the main stays, if that was all you learned you would be a very good fighter in close quarters. The naihanno is something that is in Kosho and no other, that I know of.

    I have been told that the Naihanno is really the True kata and the Naihanshi is a twist and take off that came by way of the Okinawan's, but everyone has their own twist, don't they LOL...

    James Mitose was Japanese and he spoke bad english, he was raised at a temple. He mentioned it in the transcript that Will Tracy had done. Others took all the information that was done by the Tracy's and now they are making money off of it. LOL

    So did he come back second to his sister Fusae or did he take the podium?

    GAB
     
  4. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  5. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Hmmm.... You know, my father went to Japan in the early 1960's. I'll have to ask him if he inherited a Kenpo system while he was there.
     
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    I was there in 1960 myself. We had "mickey mouse money" and it was about 360 yen to the dollar then, I believe. Could not take real money on shore. They would take the mm money and get yen for it.
    Interesting situation at that time. 10 cents a pack for smokes at the ship store, worth big bucks most you could take ashore was 1 pack at a time, Cinderella liberty.

    Did your father mention anything like that?

    Gary
     
  7. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz New Member

    God, is everyone part japanese?
     
  8. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    No, not everyone....I have some Chinese in my background :D
     
  9. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, he was able to buy a very nice reel-to-reel tape recorder for himself and set of fine China for his mother for nearly nothing. I wonder it the design in the China pattern was a secretly encoded kenpo system? Hmmmm....
     
  10. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I don't think visiting Japan makes you part Japanese ;).
     
  11. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Damn! I'll have to shave that top knot I've been growing.---sigh---
     
  12. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    If the plates are in an octagon pattern with some old trigram writing, it might be the early mysterious arts handed down in I Ching. :cool: Is the yin and yang on them :rolleyes:

    If they are cherry blossoms or plum and bamboo it would be closer to Kenpo. :)

    Gary
     
  13. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Ate at a Japanese restaurant last night. When I walked into the restaurant there were two large baskets at the entrance which proudly read "Sho Chiku Bai" and were adorned with plum flowers and bamboo. I suddenly got the feeling that I was entering a ancient Kosho Temple, until I read the writing under the crest, which read "sake".
     
  14. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I wonder if there's a sake bar next to the barber shop where GAB got his Sigung ranking from?
     
  15. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  16. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Mitose's ability as a Martial Artist

    Hi John,

    I am going to mention a discussion that is going on at SJK about Mitose the man. His abilities, his personna.

    We have been into the discussion of his abilities as far as a Martial Artist. Most are saying yes he was a qualified Martial artist, who was well respected and some say crazy/weird because of his outragious behavior at times.

    I think some of the unusual behavior came from the fact that he was a diabetic.

    I mentioned numerous persons were able to meet him and were given the right to go forth and teach his art. One of these men was Eugene Sedeno. I believe he is a friend of yours, as well as a fellow Martial Artist.

    So, since Dan mentioned that Eugene Sedeno was at his belt promotion I was wondering if you have had any discussions with him about the abilities of Mitose? Or anything you would care to mention that has been discussed between the two of you regarding the story of Mitose, and the meeting's?

    His time frame with Mitose was towards the end of his life so it might not be a fair evaluation on his abilities as a younger man at the time he was teaching. But if there is anything you want to share I am all eye's.

    Gary
     
  17. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    It was actually me that talked to Prof. Sedeno about Mitose. He said that he seemed to know what he was talking about conceptually. When I asked him about his abilities, he said that they just talked. However others said that Mitose's abilities were old school basics. It was told to me that it isn't fair to compare whta Mitose did back in the 40's to what martial artists do today because it would be like comparing a flintlock rifle to a machine gun.
     
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Thanks Dan,
    I have heard that before also. My thoughts about that comparison is look at the boxers of old and now. Pretty similar.

    Somehow I don't think the ability of Motobu would be in question as of his talent. What Mitose taught is good stuff. Why would it not still be good. Just look at what is taught by Ray Arquilla or Bruce Juchnik. Most of it is based on what Mitose mentions the laws of motion and the folds of the body and where to strike to cause damage.

    The Kajukenbo came from katas that are a hundred years old or more??? The stuff that comes from Mitose is even older. To say the old arts of the Samurai weapons or empty hand are not equal to what is taught today? They have no idea, for much of jujutsu and Budo is what was taught then...

    Chinese Hand has been around for a long time. To say Chow was great and not acknowledge Mitose's skill is foolish (look at all the pictures that show Mitose was the GM)...

    Gary
     
  19. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    First off let's talk about "Concepts" or "fundamentals" or "laws". They are what underlies actual techniques. Let's say that I was going to teach the concept of "Hit hard and fast to a vulnerable target" now, to illustrate this concept, I use a Japanese-style reverse punch to the solar plexus. The punch is the technique, whereas the concept is to "Hit hard and fast to a vulnerable target". That concept could be illustrated with a myriad of various techniques. It could be illustrated with a boxer's right cross to the jaw, or an FMA chicken wrist strike to the temple, or a hammerfist to the groin. In either case, the concept would hold true. However, the technique used to demonstrate that concept would differ greatly in it's effectiveness.

    So, let's say that Mitose taught solid concepts to his people, Chow, Young etc. plus Juchnik, Arquilla etc. whomever. Now, let's go into the respective minds of those listening to him talk about concepts. Someone like Thomas Young, might have copied Mitose more literally in terms of technique. When Chow hears "Hit hard and fast to a vulnerable target" however, he gets a picture in his head of what that means to him. Even though he sees Mitose demonstrate with a rigid Japanese reverse punch, he takes that concept and applies it to what he would do with it. Same goes for the guys who visited him in prison. If you have Juchnik, Sedeno, Arquilla etc. listening to concepts from Mitose, they are each going to have a picture in their respective minds of what that would look like in application. It's going to be vastly different in each mind due to their disparate experiences. None of them are likely to look much like Mitose looked, but the concept would still be valid.

    Judo Gene LeBell once wrote that when Karate was first introduced to the USA, it worked great in fights because no one had ever seen a front snap kick or reverse punch. Now, however, you need a lot more than that to be effective because everyone knows that stuff and can counter it.

    I think the same holds true for Mitose and what he did back in the 40's. Effective for it's time, but cannot be favorably compared to what is out there now in terms of technique. Concepts? They are universal and timeless. Techniques are not so timeless in the same way.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2007
  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Dan Good thoughts

    When speaking of the concepts of the reverse punch of the Japanese are we talking pre Funakoshi.
    Or are you talking the Shotokan that became very popular. The same techs are in Tang Soo Do because Shotokan had an influence about the same time.

    Are we going to say there was no hands on training for some of these Instructors?

    Gary
     

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