Did Aztecs influence Philippines?

pick through this thread well. there's great information here. there's also a lot of horse cr@p.

 

Will do Shootodog

 

If you knew your history on the nations that you speak of then you'd know that the North Africans were in Southern Spain for 800 years (before Spain spent 200 years in the PI and 400 years in Latin America) and the Romans conquered them as well.

It was a conquering world, everyone wanted to be in power. No need to sound like you hate the Spanish or anyone in the world. We are all one.

 

yes. i agree. it was before our time. no need to hate.

btw, that's 380 years in the p.i. i know it's a nice place and time seems to just fly by.

(old saying goes, the filipinos spent 380 years in the convent and 40 years in hollywood?)

 

Classic.

 

Maybe the thread themes need to be more interesting, all the history stuff one can do on their own, if you really want to know contact the a library in the Phillipines by internet maybe they will provide info. Also there are so many experts here already!!

 

I didn't ignore your post... in fact I found it rather interesting. It's just going to take me some time to respond to it because frankly my brain is having trouble with the scales of time involved. The numbers are so large it's quite hard to get your head around. That and I'm busy tracking down info on the Tabon Man. I wondering what I was doing that I missed that... shocking some of the things I've never heard of.

Thanks for the post... a very interesting link to Philippine prehistory.

 

Not sure how a thread theme could get more interesting than 'Aztecs and Filipinos'... ... it's truly Indiana Jones stuff if you think about it.

That being said... not everyone has the same idea of what's interesting. What holds my interest may not hold yours etc. etc. etc.

But a good place to start... is to come up with a thread that you find interesting and have at it.

 

The Spaniards came to the Philippines 29 years after the fall of the Umayyad Caliphates that ruled Spain for eight centuries, a length of time not enough to develop a matured fencing art that could have been implanted in Mactan. The revival of fencing in Spain happened only in the 18th century when Spain finally opened herself to Europe who was far ahead in fencing compared to the retarded and disintegrated fencing knowledge of Spain caused by foreign domination. Spaniards lost their true culture handed by the barbarians of the north and the Romans.

One Spanish writer even declared that during the 800 years of Moslem domination everything disintegrated except the race. Based on these facts, how can rapier and dagger be implanted and caused influence in the Island of Mactan? It is plain lies declared out of ignorance. Or, this could have been intentionally done, for an intended purpose. It is very clear in the book “Filipino Martial Culture” that it is partial to the fabricated independent classical arnis classification to create an influence of Spanish rapier and dagger to the Filipino martial arts. This claim of the book though is contradictory.

How can Spanish fencing influence the Filipino martial arts in the 16th century when it was just revived in the 18th century? The book did not reconcile the facts before it was written nor did it do enough analysis and research to vindicate itself from possible critical scrutiny. The elite Asian martial arts magazine even endorsed the book without considering the backfire it could do to their prestige as a nucleus of mostly Ph.D. group. .

 

Did you write that or if not... what was the source?

 

I'm curious here which Spanish writer you're referring to?

If it's in Spanish that's no problem as I speak it and read it fluently. If you could provide that reference that'd be great. Name, link, ISBN number.

As well... I'm not exactly sure that a single Spanish writer saying something necessarily equates to facts - especially given the contentious topic at hand.

 

I do not think why? we have been influence by the spanish sord and dagger but I am influnced by the Italian spaghettisticks....

 

So there were no fencing arts during the time of Spain was under the control of the Caliphates? Surely there would have been some form of swords arts during the eight centuries no?

I'd question this. Surely Sain didn't lose their 'true' culture. Otherwise Spain would have never gone back to revive anyting once the muslims left. I'd also question that their culture was just 'handed to them' surely that's not how the transmission of culture works.

So are you suggesting that there is some sort of collusion amongst Arnis practitioners and nationalistic Spanish?

Again I'd have to ask if these are your questions or is this something that has been copied off a book review of the book mentioned above? They sound like some sort of critique of Mark Wiley's book.

 

I expected you to say Spaghetti Westerns... but then that'd be guns and not knives.

 

Where did you get that article?

Well, I have a friend who is a senior in UP (University of the Philippines) majoring in linguistics. Last time, when we talked about Phil. pre-history, he told me that linguistic studies made dating the SE Asian languages run contrary to Otley Beyer's theory. The linguistic study he read (he didn't tell me whose it is) posits that the austronesian people (that is, Oceanic, Polynesian, and SE Asian people) originated from Taiwan, and spread southwards, first to the Philippines and then to Indonesia Malaysia, and the rest of SE Asia.

Also, my friend told me that Otley Beyer's theory of Negrito, Indonesian A, Indonesian B, and Malay migration into the Philippines is pure speculation, and Beyer in his writings did not present any kind of evidence to back up his theories.

A quick search on the internet then led me to this website dedicated to Philippine pre-history which contains this page that describes something similar to what my friend told me.
- - -

Addendum:

To slipthejab, ap oweyn, and all those others wondering why not a lot of people post here anymore... I for one find it just too much of a hassle trying to enter into discussion with some people who, in my experience, are somewhat close minded and do not respond well, if at all, to differing viewpoints.

Bato-bato sa langit, ang tamaan huwag magalit (If you are hit by stones falling from heaven, do not get angry).

And so there may have been some Aztec/Mexican influence in the Philippines, the extent of which would be anyone's guess (negligible in my opinion)... What now?

 

i've heard of both theories before. both make sense. i wonder how this'll turn out.

 

Bwahahahaha
Given that we have a manual by Pietro Monte in 1492, Jerónimo Sánchez de Carranza in 1569 and Luis Pacheco de Narváez in 1600 I think your assertion about Spanish swordsmanship is utterly cr@p. Monte may or may not have included Spanish techniques but the other two certainly did. Spain was busy stomping all over the other nations armies at the time, with swords, bucklers and pikes so they were certainly up there with the best in Europe.

 

Oops my bad for not citing the source. Hang on let me dig it out. Give me a bit. (though I may have it up before you come back to the thread).

Yes I ran across this site as well. It was after a quick search on Philippines prehistory. There were not very many in english... so that was one that was of interest as I unfortunately don't understand enough Tagalog to be able to read on this subject. I'd be curious if there was more resource for this type of history on the web in Tagalog?

Hmm... I'm wondering if we're on completely different threads. For the most part this thread has been one of open ended questions (at least my general frame of mind has been one of curiosity). I fail to see how that is 'close minded'. I've not got a nationalist or racial axe to grind or any other axe to grind for that matter... thus the continual posting to keep this thread alive and to in a sense think out loud as I go over the theories and schools of thought in regards to the subject at hand. And to hopefully get as much feedback as possible.

edit: which btw is ironic considering that I think BGiles whole bent is that he does have some sort of nationalistic or racial axe to grind. I base that on his previous comments about the Moros and his other thread on the Philippines that was closed just prior to opening this one.

Care to point out exactly what you feel is close minded in this thread?

Or perhaps I've completely misunderstood your comment... you are talking about the FMA forum as a whole? Or the general attitude here at MAP? Or this particular area of history and it's relation to the Philippines?

Sorry I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from with the 'close minded' comment. I'm not sure what your point of reference is.

At any rate - thanks for posting and I look forward to hearing more from you about this topic.

 

I'd question if the writing is actually the work of StixMaster... was it actually or pulled from another (as of yet) uncited source?

In tone and style that whole particular post sounds strikingly academic in comparison to the other stuff he's posted - which made me wonder where he got it from.

It'd be interesting to know.
It doesn't appear to hold much water when compared against actual known facts of Spanish fencing and swordsmanship though.

 

Here it is - http://www.lakb.net/articles.html