Did Aztecs influence Philippines?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by BGile, Jun 28, 2007.

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  1. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ok... now we're off to a better start.


    There are Nahuatl words or linguistic influences in Tagalog language.

    To mention a few: achuete, atole, avocado, balsa, banqueta, cacahuete, cacao, caimito, calabaza, camachile, camote, calachuche, chico, chocolate, coyote, nana(y), tata(y), tiangui, tocayo, zacate, and zapote.

    There is a big Mexican influence and to a certain extent... a Portuguese influence (Waray Waray primarily). I'll qualify that by stating that the exposure I have on a regular basis is to Tagalog, Waray-Waray and Ilocano. Maybe someone with a deeper understanding of Filipino languages can comment.

    The place to start looking for any information on this would be doing some research on Miguel López de Legázpi. Along with Magellan, Legázpi took control of the Philippine islands in the name of the King of Spain. I've heard it said that Mexicans do regard the Philippines as a former colony of Mexico... not of Spain. Though to be sure... Mexico was a colony of Spain and by extension ruled by the Spanish crown. Many of the sailors on Spanish galleons were a mixture of mestizos, indios (aztecs, tlaxcas and purepechas), Chinese and Chinese mestizos.

    The Philippines was administered out of of Acapulco and Canton. Much of the crops important to the Philippines probably arrived earlier with the Portuguese however. There is a long history of interaction between Mexico and the Philippines... but much there were many groups involved. I don't think we can really say it was only Aztec influence in the Philippines.

    Interestingly enough... some of the first units to liberate Manila from the Japanese in 1944 was a column of Mexican Army soldiers.:eek:

    I think it's also important to remember that culture is a dynamic phenomenon not a static one. Therefore we need to consider that there were a myriad of influences on the Philippines... not just the ones that came from Mexico. The Malays were there long before the Spanish and the Mexicans arrived on the scene. So it's not as if culturally the Philippines was a blank slate until others cultures arrived. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

    I think we can all agree that Filipino culture is Latin influenced but uniquely Filipino. Yes it has influences that have added to it... but the instances of influence of and by themselves are not the sum total the culture either.

    I'd be interested to hear from those of Filipino descent on this subject.
    Primarily because I think you'd be hard pressed to find a Filipino in the Philippines who actually can speak Spanish. Not just one or two borrow words... but proper Spanish.

    Of note is that among many Filipinos there is a point of pride in trying to claim some sort of direct Spanish descent. I've always thought his had more to do with discrimination of darker skinned Filipinos. Look at most actresses from the Philippines and they're about as light skinned as your average tai-tai Chinese.
    :eek:
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2007
  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Slip so you do agree there is a two way street here, maybe we will be able to try and discover who or what was influenced by whom?
    The Indonesian community gave much to the area we call Philippines, So what was the term/name for the Islands before that?

    Gary
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    It's interesting stuff that's for sure.

    I'm afraid much of that may be lost to the sands of time. Even the term Filipino is a relatively recent invention. Being based on the word 'Felipe' I believe. According to what I've read the word actually means - a person who is is a Spanish born in LuzViMinda. But the word originally was meant to refer to Spanish people born in the Philippines... not the native Malays. It was used depreciatively to contrast and compare them to Spaniards born in Spain... the Peninsulares.

    Given that Tagalog is an Austronesian language I think it'd take someone with a better understanding than myself to start effectively guessing what the original term for the Philippine Islands was. Or at least a term that predates the Tagalog word. In fact even the concept is questionable as I don't think the Philippines as we know it existed for the Negritos and proto-Malays and those that followed. Because the massive spread of islands and their sheer numbers I don't know that what a proto-Malay knew of the islands fits with our modern day definition of the Philippine islands.

    Perhaps there would be a word in the languages of the other tribal people of the Philippines that might give some clue. The Maranaos, Ifugaos and the Igorots.

    In terms of the structure of the Negritos and proto-Malays and other early groups it appears they were run under a system that on many levels is still in use today that of the barangay ruled by a chieftan in what was a fuedal society. But in saying that... there was a very large amount of intertribal trade going on... the classic symbiotic relationships... but starting at what point I'm not entirely sure. I'd guess it was for centuries before Juan de Sancedo sailed up their way. The highland tribes (Igorots) often traded gold for the materials and items they didn't have access to but that the low land tribes (Ilocanos) did... of course... as always... the Chinese (Fujianese?) were heavily involved in the mix as well.

    There is some interesting history that roughly predates the Spaniards by about 300 years in the Margata's legends of Malayan Chieftans who escaped with their wives, slaves, families and warriors and landed at a place called Andona, near the mouth of the Siwaraganto.. which is today San Joaquin.. in order to escape the tyrannical rule of the Sultan of Makatunao in Borneo. When they arrived where they did... there were already Negritos living there... ruled by King Marikudo and Queen Maniwangtiwang. I'm not sure if the King and Queen were of Malay origin or also Negrito. Again it's a legend so I'm not sure if it's entirely accurate... but it does offer some interesting insight into the whole issue. At any rate... in terms of formal governing concepts even at the time the Spaniards arrived on the scene... many Filipinos were still living in barangay settlements.

    (which on a funny side note that chieftan is called a Datu... as on the logo of the Datu Puti brand vinegar bottle - which was gave no end of amusement to my Nepali chef's here in Hong Kong as for them the word 'puti' is a derogatory term for a womans vagina!! :eek: :p )

    One interesting bit worth noting when it comes to names of/for the Philippines would be that Andres Bonifacio (one of the first leaders of the revolution against Spanish control and for that matter against European domination of Asians) thought of renaming the islands. His "kartilya ng Katipunan" revealed that he wanted to established a "Republika ng Katagalugan."

    There is some interesting theory that the name Luzon is actually a Chinese word - there was a LUSONG during the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 A.D.). It's been said that the ancient name of Luzon in Chinese history was Tanzhou Province. It's possible that Luzon was a Chinese province like Taiwan. The Chinese province of Tanzhou was under the administration of Kingdom of Wu (220-280 A.D.). According to what I think are the oldest Philippine language Baybayin or Alibata - languages lacking the letter Z... meaning the word couldn't have been of Malay origin. So the Spanish were the ones that renamed it what is today know as Luzon instead of Lusong. I can't be 100% sure if I got that correct (the gist of it I meant - the dates of the Chinese dynasties/kingdoms are correct).

    As if the whole thing couldn't possibly get anymore exotic... it does:

    According to legend the Kapampangans (the dominant ethnic group in central Luzon) were descended from a Seleucid princess who came to settle in the region now known as Pampanga. Ok no big deal... that is until you take a look at what 'Selecuid' means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_Empire

    :eek: :eek:

    Whew...

    - On that note... I sure wish some of the Filipino members of MAP would jump in and give some insight... I'm sure there are more interesting bits but I'm wracking my brains to pull more out. It's been ages since I gave much of this thought.

    At any rate... digging into this requires one hell of a lot of reading. Amongst the Filipinos themselves it can be a very sensitive issue. I've seen conversations simply about the term Filipino turn into massive arguments that last all night. :D

    Note: to anyone who is a native Tagalog speaker please feel free to interject at anytime on my spellings.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2007
  5. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Last edited: Jun 28, 2007
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Last edited: Jun 28, 2007
  7. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  8. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Personally, I believe we greatly underestimate the extent of all sea trade routes in antiquity. So, a trade route between what are now the Phillipines and the South & Central Americas is certainly feasable, if not inevitable!

    Indonesians certainly travelled as far West as Madagascar. Malagasy, the language of Madagascar, is Austronesian. The Indonesian 'colonists' even pre-date the African inhabitants who arrived later.

    So, certainly distancewise, travel was entirely feasable in Pre-colonial days.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2007
  9. Angelus

    Angelus Waiting for summer :D

    Slip the linguist...?
     
  10. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    The trade winds and sea currents were something that was really not charted and/or known of with the preciseness of today.

    But that still did not mean you could not find your way around with a few words and a message to go north or south, at certain locations. China ruled the seas for very long time, land trade routes were also something in existance.

    We fail to grasp the knowledge that these earlier peoples had. Navigators were very important and were paid well for their information.
    When you throw a bottle in the ocean and it goes to a location without any one at the helm, it is pretty much a given that the currents are the driver.

    The book 1421 and web page site 1421.tv is full of valuable information. Not to say it is the last word or the first but it is good stuff.

    Much has been speculated, what amazes me is the vast amounts of information about the Indonesian areas and the fact that people have been on PI for these thousands of years, and yet not much history other than oral and that only for a few generations. We are talking truly a land with much warfare and destruction from time immemorial, I would mention.

    Most societies, take over a culture, destroy evidence of the existing. It is a given, look what so many of other cultures that we know of, did, so if you applied scientific thoughts that 8 out of 10 did just that, and you have thousands of islands that have been fought over for thousands of years it is pretty apparant. The amount of languages is astounding, just in Luzon.

    Gary
     
  11. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Interesting stuff. I wasn't aware that the Indonesians made it to Madagascar first. Wow! :eek: Madagascar is actually on my top 10 lists of places to vistit.

    Yes, I agree that we do underestimate the extent of all the sea trade routes. If with all our modern day technology and weapons we still have a very difficult time tracking down terrorists moving around between the islands of Jolo and Basilan... then it stands to reason that the seafaring people of those reasons would have gone much farther and wider than is generally imagined.
     
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I'm not really all that convinced of this frankly. While they obviously didn't possess the GPS systems of today... I think they were very savvy sailors. And without a doubt some of the keenest navigators over the centuries.

    err... most of these peoples wouldn't have had glass. So there was no bottle throwing being done. Navigation by the stars is relatively accurate... so I think we can assume that navigation was slightly more sophisticated than throwing a bottle in the water and waiting for it to wash up on some shore.
    You make it sound as if oral histories are in someway inferior to written histories. I think you either want to rethink this stance or you want to rethink your motivations for trying to paint it like this. If you understand the ways that history can be passed down when it's written you'll understand that even if much of it had been written down - the materials probably would not have lasted due to the environment. This is common throughout much of South East Asia frankly. The hostile environment to written records is why so few of them are found. Fiber based papers rot in the hot humid environments very quickly.

    I think the concept of history that you're trying to apply may not even exist in the same sense when you deal with many of the tribal people of these regions that go back centuries. History as we study it and know it is a relatively modern construct. I've no doubt that people like the Igarots, the Kalinga's and what not have a very different perspective about history than do westerners.


    I don't think this is accurate either. I don't think, based on the evidence... that there was some sort of massive preponderance of warfare an destruction since time immemorial. If you read my short bit on the trade with the Chinese and the symbiotic relationships amongst the tribes of islands then you'll know that it wasn't all warfare and carnage.

    Yes they had war and strife... most any society/culture will. However I don't think they had somehow cornered the market.

    Could you let us know how you came to that conclusion? :confused:

    Again... can you back up the 'most' in that starting sentence. Sure it does happen... but I don't think that makes it the absolute rule. I don't think you can draw any sort of number like 8 out of 10. Many cultures that took over another culture actually absorbed much of that culture... we can look at the Greeks and the Romans, we can look at the Mongolians... we can look even in the make up of their armies as in the armies of Alexander.

    Again - there was some warfare in these islands that make up the Philippines but it wasn't just continual carnage as you're making it out.


    Yes, it's an amazing area for languages. In the areas in Mindanao that I've spent time... in the more remote parts... you still have tribal Mansaka people who carry spears... sharing essentially the same trails as the NPA (New People's Army) who carry AK-47's. It's quite a heady mixture to be honest. Sometimes the difference in langauge (between the Mansaka's and pretty much everyone else) that hand signals have to suffice for trade. Fascinating stuff. In many ways for me seeing Mansaka people just going about trade was about the closest I've ever come into looking back in time. Their haircuts, what they wore (wasn't much) the spear they carried.. and the fact they could walk faster on mountain trails than anyone I've ever seen just blew me away. I've no doubt these tribal people could lap me on the muddy,leach ridden trails that make up the areas in the moutains just out of Maragusan even though they wore almost nothing in the leech infested jungle and they never wore shoes. I've got a lot of respect for the kinds of survival skills it takes to live in areas like that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2007
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Well slip, guess I have been reading to many books and data that discuss these things "Wiki" and all that stuff?

    I could discuss your points one by one, but I don't want to go there...But I'll mention.

    As for the bottle:

    It was just something I thought, that people could relate to.

    Navigation by the stars was a good deal, along with the compass, funny the Chinese, and the compass of, say Magellan, were different as to where N and S were.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan

    This is a website you might want to read
    http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Navigation-at-Sea-History-of.html

    Some followed these guys I have read:

    http://www.unc.edu/depts/oceanweb/turtles/

    Of course there is the instruments of late:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation

    In fact they mention the sea lane that brought them to Mexico was quite different then you would think. I'll talk about that later.

    The Spanish were brutal and the topic of discussion about those being conquered and destroyed, both PI and Mexico come to mind.

    The US of A in the fight with PI at the turn of the century did a number on the population killed over 300,000 some books mention...So much for their inability to kill the "Moro".
    Bruce Haines talks about it in a book he wrote about the various arts of the Philippines. I have plenty of reference if you want. Pretty common knowledge I believe.

    (Okinawa was left pretty messed up also).

    If you don't mind lets stick to the topic of PI, Mexico, Spanish and the Catholic Church. Plus of course the slash and burn techs of the Islands and Mexico by both groups that fought there.

    Beyond a doubt a brutal and horrible situation for both cultures.

    Gary
     
  14. StixMaster

    StixMaster Valued Member

    Maybe for navigation those Indo/Malaysian people used the stars to sail, like most of the other Pacific rim people did they had their own form of star and constellation charts. Remember not to think or compare with European ways, you know the people that thought the world was 'FLAT' and what does it really say about a culture of people with a history of committing types of genocide whereever they went'EXPLORING' ??? Cheers !
     
  15. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Of course people went by the stars, been doing it for eons all over the world. As far as flat, it was a small group of people that thought that way, with a huge press.

    Genocide is all over whether it was a tribal situation or a huge nation, that is what I have been saying all along. These people left a location to survive and ended up in another to do the same.
    All cultures show that tendency.
    Philistines vs the Israelites Hmmmm still going on...
    Palestine is the extension of the Philistines and the Isaelites are the Jewish community.

    This is not new at all, the Phoencians populated the old world, and all of the world some say.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

    Clear over to where we are discussing, what I have linked to is just a taste of what some believe.

    Slip posted something already about the princess :D Funny how princess's seem to be in the legend of many things about the arts of the practioners of FMA, here is his link

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seleucid_Empire

    I am not someone who only thinks inside a box. LOL

    B.F. Skinner comes to mind. :D Behavioral Modification
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner
    :D :D
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Sorry but your posts are really just erratic. Too rambling for me to bother with making much sense of. It's just too much effort to decipher them with far too little payoff in the end.

    I figured you were interested in truly discussing the topic.. but it appears you're far more interested in posting links to Wikipedia.

    If you want to respond directly and logically to something I've posted then do so... Lord knows I've posted more than enough for you to chew on. Not that I actually expect you to bother.

    If you want to litter your own thread with Wiki links that's your perogative too. But don't expect the conversation to actually go anywhere. ;)
     
  17. StixMaster

    StixMaster Valued Member

    Excuse me for getting in the way of your superiority trip, like you are the all seeing all knowing FMA Guru of Guros??? Hey man, thats why they call it 'history', you know "his- story" so of course you will mention things like so much for the killing of 'Moros', then you got links to books with the one-sided point of view-their view- but all you have is links! So what if the damn Spanish brought Aztecs to the Phillipines or vice-versa, all those folks were being mis-treated by a dominant culture, the same culture that now cowers in fear of the 'mid-east malcontents' so much for your dominant culture , eh??? So I will enjoy reading your one-sided posts, bite on that !! When you 'slip the jab' don't forget the hook or uppercut that might be countering your slip !!
     
  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    STIXMASTER...

    you big n00b... reading comprehension is your friend.
    :D

    1) You're comments are addressed to me.. but you've misunderstood who is saying what here. The comments about 'so much for the killing of the Moros' are NOT my comments. Those belong to BGile. If you'd bothered to read anything that I posted then you'd know that I wouldn't be caught saying such clap trap.

    I've merely quoted them. Learn how and what the 'quote' function is here at MAP and save yourself from further embarrassment.


    2) If you can't be bothered to understand who is saying what in this thread... please don't make yourself look even more silly by trying clever plays on words... tough guy talk, or handing out boxing advice... btw...because an uppercut isn't a counter for a slip. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2007
  19. StixMaster

    StixMaster Valued Member

    Yes, I was in a rush and did not bother to read more thoroughly. Excuse me Mate. Just a post I thought was way off thats all. Cheers! You're right if you're boxing, I was fighting at corto range in my mind, with no referee or a crowd just mano-mano, not boxing, no gloves but with just hands.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2007
  20. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Again... if you can show me an example of someone who uses an uppercut to counter against a slip then post it up. I don't think you're going to find a boxing coach in the world that will recommend that. But frankly - you know... and I know... that you're not going to post anything up. What's more is it's way off topic. So just drop it. ;)

    No worries.
     
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