Demos in the Buj

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Dunc, Aug 16, 2016.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Starting a new thread to address these questions

     
  2. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Hi

    Here’s my perspective & maybe it’s helpful to re-iterate that whilst the Buj is my “home art” I actively cross train (mostly BJJ these days) so hopefully I can offer an unbiased PoV

    Also I get where you’re coming from and your perspective is, of course, founded on some very important truths


    Generally I cringe when I see demos on youtube etc. For some reason the most prominent westerners on youtube are the ones with the lowest skill and the largest egos
    This combination (ie low skill - big ego) creates an echo chamber with the students taking dives for their teacher. The teacher starts to believe that they can achieve incredible feats of martial skill and feels that they need to share their awesomeness with the world

    Most of the practitioners that I know and associate with (the silent majority) don’t put out videos, do home study courses etc
    Probably I’m swimming against the current a bit by putting up my clips…
    Originally I had them behind a password for the club members to recap from class, but I find that the feedback on MAP is generally useful and I figure that the 41 people who’ve finished watching one of my clips this month are not going to cause me any problems

    I really wish that there was a more balanced amount of content out there, but I can’t change that. The good video and the bad video threads are perhaps helpful (if you can be bothered to wade through all the noise

    With Hatsumi-sensei’s demos you have to learn to
    a) Catch the critical point that he’s making (eg he’ll make a key point once and then move on)
    b) Take a principle that he’s teaching and build it into your movement. That’s a different thing from copying what he did & expecting it to be useful / pragmatic for your situation. Often he illustrates a principle in a crazy exaggerated way for example
    c) Watch the interplay between uke and tori. This interplay, is I believe what he focuses his attention on more than anything else. He’s not correcting his uke or prescribing how they should move because he is training (or perhaps teaching his more advanced students) to deceive the opponent in the moment. If things become fixed then you can’t train this

    It’s variable: Often his ukes at taikai are the people mentioned in (1) above and that’s a factor. Hatsumi-sensei doesn’t get rid of these people, he makes them feel good about themselves and show their true colours if you like

    As he’s aged (he’s over 80 now) he generally uses ukes who he knows will be OK and can help him illustrate the point he’s trying to make - which necessarily requires compliance - which unfortunately gets copied by younger folk


    I think he’s teaching those immediately behind him. Which is different to teaching everyone

    He’s been very clear and consistent with people by saying things like “Don’t copy what I’m doing now, go back and look at how my training progressed over the years and follow that path if you want to be good”

    And he’s an old guy - he’s not going to roll with everyone in the room or get into a fair fight

    Having said that in my direct experience he will grab you if notices that what he has just shown isn’t working on you and have a go on you

    I’ve done the saki test, yes - I don’t see it as a test really as everyone passes eventually. In my view it’s a learning experience that should change how you train

    For me, and I can only speak of my personal experience, it taught me a few very important points: 1) Don’t bring your expectations/plan to the party, 2) don’t think & 3) relax under pressure/stress

    I don’t really believe in the explanations of how it works that are banded about, but I believe that there’s enormous value in training to move, in a martial way, in response to various stimuli without thinking - particularly in a scary/stressful scenario

    After my experience of the test I tried to build this into my training - so for me at least it was an eye opener


    Hope that make sense
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2016
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    If only everyone (even just a majority would do) in the Booj was like Dunc. It'd be in a far better place and be held in much higher regard I think.
    And also I think an example of how you don't have to go to Japan and live in a shihan's pocket to "get it".

    One thing I feel that make booj demos suffer is how so many people have copied Hatsumi's playful/clownish demeanor. Such a demeanor is OK in some amount I think (the best instructors I feel use humour and levity when instructing to some degree) but overall it gives the impression of not being serious or that fighting is a simple, easy or fun affair. It seems almost dismissive in some ways.
     
  4. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    That's very kind, but honestly most people in the buj operate and think along similar lines

    MAP and YouTube are not representative samples unfortunately
     
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Thank you, Dunc.

    Some stuff to mull over there. I'll definitely give it some thought. My initial thoughts are that it might temper my attitude towards Hatsumi somewhat even if I don't agree with how he goes about things or the god status he has been elevated to amount his students.

    Your reply was level headed, considered and has given me something to consider in evaluating my current perception. So thank you. I might come back later with other queries.

    I'd like to echo smitfire's sentiments on both counts.
     
  6. campsinger

    campsinger Valued Member

    This is just my opinion: Soke is kinda eccentric. As such, he doesn’t really care what we think. Personally, I would like to see better quality control within the Bujinkan. Soke, however, is really only concerned with two things: 1) his own training, and 2) sharing the beautiful gift of Budo that his teacher shared with him. His senior Japanese shihan, however, while concerned with these two things, are also very concerned with quality control (some more than others). They can get pretty cranky when you are in their classes and not doing what you are supposed to do.

    On the flip side, there is the Japanese mentality that if they ignore or don’t acknowledge you, you will go away. Also, the traditional Japanese mindset is a shame based culture. Promote beyond ability and one will either go away or work 10 times as hard to be worthy of the promotion. Westerners (and Americans in particular) don’t understand this attitude, with the notable exceptions of the US Marines, which is a shame-based sub-culture in America.


    True, but that has inherent problems as well. Stephen K. Hayes has done exactly that and created ToShinDo. Having trained in my buddy’s TSD dojo for several months when I was a guest in his house, I got a good look at their training. My buddy was also old school Booj (he started in 1986, I started in 1987, we trained together while stationed in Berlin from 1988-1990); training was pretty rough back then, lots of bruises. In a more structured atmosphere, the “Oh crap, I screwed up, now how do I survive this?” attitude doesn’t get any attention. One of the things that has been emphasized in my training and my teaching is just that: how to get yourself out of situations where you are deep in the middle of a fight and you’ve screwed up or things just didn’t go the way you planned, and how do you fix that? You fix it by exploring (playing, to use Soke’s word).

    I don’t mean any disrespect by the following comment: a more old-fashioned budo structure, i.e. Warring States Period (which I think Soke is attempting to establish) isn’t established by using the spoon feeding method of “classical koryu”. It is established by more of an osmosis methodology. Personally, I think the “spoon feeding method” is quite appropriate for the ranks up until shodan (while learning the basics), at which time it should switch over to the osmosis method (while learning how to apply these basics).


    The various videos Soke puts out should be viewed as examples of what is possible if you train continuously and with dedication for 50 years. Kinda like an infomercial, to keep your dreams alive. They should in not be viewed as instructional in any way/shape/form.

    As for seeing the man in person, training in his presence at a TaiKai or at Hombu, think of the following analogy: You learn to play piano from your music teacher in school, then move on to a university and learn the more indepth information about music in general and piano in particular. You go out and join a band or play some solo gigs. Things are going okay, then one day you get to attend a seminar by Billy Joel or Elton John. Your mind is blown by all the possibilities that you never even entertained before. Your practice takes on a new enthusiasm and your talent explodes. You hunger for more. If only you could be taught by Beethoven, Mozart, or Chopin. But they are no longer alive. But wait, what about Martha Argerich, Vladimir Ashkenazy, or Stephen Hough? They are still alive; what would it be like to learn from them? What would the result to your ability be just to witness their ability, the energy they put off while consumed by their art?

    A demo/embu is a presentation done specifically for an audience. Everyone wants it to go well. A certain level of choreography is necessary to ensure safety and entertainment value. How things go down in the dojo is entirely different, or it should be. It should probably be noted that unless Soke is training privately with the shihan, some of the things done at Hombu are done with somewhat of an embu feeling.


    Yes. Think of it as kind of an initiation, of sorts, that allows you access to a semi-exclusive club. Besides that, it serves many purposes. One is a direct transmission of energy as referenced above in the piano analogy. It serves to rewire the brain’s circuitry. Our brain takes in massive amounts of information on a daily basis, only a small percentage of which gets passed on to our mind for processing. What the sakki test does is force our mind to process more of what our brain takes in. Hence the heightened awareness that usually comes with passing the sakki test. There is a lot of spiritual stuff, psycho-babble, and New Age philosophy that people attach to passing the sakki test, and some or all of it may or may not be true, based on what is true for you as an individual.
     
  7. pearsquasher

    pearsquasher Valued Member

    Oh Campsinger's nailed it :woo:....


    A little side note.

    I see Soke as the epitome of doing "exactly what is necessary in the very moment". So if his uke is uber amazing at rolling/ukemi (and they often are - its called training) you will see him take advantage of that because that's what is in front of him. The fact that this leads to a large amount of ukemi-rich "unrealistic" techniques to the casual viewer, is probably of no concern to him whatsoever - he's training for him not you.

    For the rest of us having a dojo with a stream of beginners who are not able to take ukemi as well brings the techniques down to more "realitic levels" than seen in demos.

    Arnaud showed this excellently at a seminar once "This is how this works on a flying monkey" he said, referring to a student who really did take uber ukemi and escaped intact.

    "This is how it is when the monkey doesn't fly" - did the same technique on someone who felt resistance was better and Arnaud knew it - the guy crumpled. (I'm guessing he could take it but like to try not to, which is good to do)

    The main issue is, is that Soke is working with mostly "monkeys" because they know if they didn't fly they're toast. He often then prevents their ukemi ... to work on THAT idea itself.

    So its a hierarchy of dealing with whats happening and Soke is at the top where ANYTHING that's happening gets used e.g. he slips, a belt is undone, the attacker can do back flips etc
     
  8. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Pearsquasher - I have been waiting while I actually think about what has been said to comment and will continue to do so. Some stuff I can agree with, some stuff I have yet to decide on, some stuff I think is untrue or flawed.

    I just have to say that the argument about uke ukemi and its impact on hatsumi's actions in embu is a little patronising and I think easy to reject. There are plenty of instances where this is clearly not the case. In fact there are myriad instances where nothing other than total uke compliance to hatsumi's lead to the point of jelly-like passivity is displayed.

    I am not at my PC right now but could upload a good selection later.

    The unrealistic techniques are unrealistic due to plenty of reasons in my mind but the ukemi wasn't one of them.

    For example - one thing that really made me laugh - the iwamawashi demonstration at about 8mins of the video Giovanni posted in the bad videos thread from which this topic is a splinter. The flaws in that regarding combative realism and technically sound theory are not only in the eye of the 'casual viewer'... Its predicated on passivity and playacting on the behalf of uke and totally unworkable physical technique.
     
  9. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    One thing that really sticks in my mind is Hatsumi playfully twisting (or pretending to twist) some guys nipple and the bloke basically springing up and damn near falling over like he'd been electrocuted.
    It was like something from a comedy sketch or the 3 stooges.
    Now...in principle gripping, twisting and grabbing fleshy areas can be combatively useful in some ways. But let's not exaggerate the effects.

    One thing I think demos should have is realistic reactions, results and expectations of effects. That's why the systema demos look so stupid.
     
  10. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    You know a lot of bujinkan demonstrations are not really enbu per se, but are parts of actual classes being taught, so I think you would see more of a play side from a bujinkan perspective.

    I am not bujinkan though and I must say that classes at Genbukan Honbu are very strict in nature, but hey even there you might see an occasional smile when the situation is right.

    I think when many people watch demos they have different expectations of what, "good" is based on there experience, because lets all be honest, no demo is going to replicate a real life mugging or road rage happening, ergo anything that is, "real" and unexpected.

    The most glaring fundamental difference is the training methodologies any of the Xkans predominately use or many koryu for that matter which the primary vehicle of training is kata training(any form of free training is either limited or something newly added), as opposed to a modern art that does a lot of sparring or pressure type testing. These two schools of thought seem to be huge factors in evaluating a demo by some.
     
  11. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I've wanted to wait, contemplate what was said and to try to really look at things from a different perspective. I feel like I owe that to everyone responding here, given that dissenting/questioning voices aren' t usually responded to, dialogue between xkaners and other practioners aren't often mutually respectful and because the responses here have been so open, considered and genuine.

    Regarding Hatsumi's demos/teaching specifically I'm attempting to filter what I see through the following ideas, which have been presented by others:

    1)He is teaching with a playful, comedic attitude and occasionally 'hamming it up'.
    2)Hatsumi is teaching broad ideas/concepts in his demonstrations.
    3)Therefore, his demonstrations are not meant to be replicated verbatim (figuratively) as technique, but to serve as inspriation for higher grade students (it seems there is a tacit implication that his stuff is too high level for others/lower ranks to understand and thus it is futile/detrimental to attempt replication).
    4) In line with 1 and 2, what he shows is in often in a crazy exaggerated manner that illustrates ideas in ways that are different than how they might look in actual application.
    5) There is the assertion that despite the presentation and lack of overt combative demonstration, what he shows is technically and combatively sound and of great value to the advancement of your personal practice.

    Overridingly, the reasons for this approach are a mix of micro and macro cultural factors and simple personal preference/personality factors on behalf of Hatsumi.

    Ive really tried to put myself aside and see things through this lens.

    In doing so I can see that stylistically they will look the way that they do. I can also see that picking apart the combat applicability of a specific set of responses might not be that worthwhile, as that might not have been the intention behind what was shown.

    It has made me much more tolerant and open to what is being shown (Although I still maintain a dislike for the over stylished telegraphed punches with zero intent and punch grabbing on which many of the demos are predicated and the training paradigm which this exemplifies) and has allowed me to access the demos somewhat more, in spite of my inner cringe muscles.

    What I can see is that Hatsumi is clearly a very knowledgable man who has highly refined awareness of the human body. You can see this in his footwork, distancing, balance, angles, atemi, joint manipulation etc

    What I can't unsee, is the extent to which the medium/context, which allows for this technical knowledge to be showcased and explored, suffers from a few issues which render it so far removed from the context of application that things can easily mutate.

    The stylised and unrealistic feed of the technique, coupled with the deference and awe of the students, combined with Hatsumi's playful style;frequently cause the material to drift off into the realms of the ridiculous and to become unanchored from the technical/conceptual realities of combat. I don't think this is useful when the perported aim is to be imparting concepts and principles of armed and unarmed combat and I think it obfuscates that goal. However I dont suppose this is entirely Hatsumi's fault...



    I think the above quotes speak to a large portion of it.

    Firstly the uke are so complient that they over respond to everything and are seemingly acting from a will to show the efficacy of a technique above responding honestly. They appear star struck and just so pleased to be there that they want to 'please teacher', show they get it and not mess anything up. This leads to some totally ridiculous responses to initial techniques and to the self-locking (not letting go of a limb when they are the only ones holding themselves in the lock or moving their own structure so as to regain balance/base) and self defeating actions of a person who has given up any form of resistance and essentially becomes a puppet as they have entirely sacrificed their own volition. The issue is when you see physical responses from Hatsumi that only work under those conditions and which therefore don't represent either techniques or concepts of combat at all, as they no longer pertain to it. When you see others replicating this in the dojo its compounded.

    I am not refering to flips and ukemi. I understand the argument about ukemi. I recognise that (as in Aikido) certain locks are dangerous and painful and that training has instilled the response to ukemi out of them for the sake of self preservation etc. Nobody wants to damage their wrist. Mine is jacked at the moment and it's put me out of training for about 2 weeks so far. I'm talking about holding your lunge punch out while an octogenarian slowly walks around you in a cirlce, allowing your arm to be gently moved back past the point of balance till you crumble to one knee laughing at your percieved helplessness.

    This is when an incredibly knowledgeable man's already abstracted demonstration of theory becomes diverted to the point of farce. He most likely is totally aware of this (might find it funny)... I'm not sure everyone who is involved is aware. You end up with something much like the demos and practices of systema, as Smitfire said.


    then you get in to what's realistic as a demo.

    I get you, but it's not that hard. You know, you see old decrepit coaches (although Hatsumi is pretty spritely!) teaching all the time. Guys like Billy Robinson, for example, can show technique and talk about principle all day long and it'll be in a way that clearly defines how the theory and the physical responses are in symbiosis (although he has a voice like crushed paving slabs going through a coffee grinder). Helio Gracie could have demonstrated the same. Neither of them can/could of (RIP HG) rolled full out or spar with their students to show things under full pressure... but everything is tight, pragmatic, based on realistic physical responses from the partner and clearly defined. What's more, if their partner had of been doing the stuff you get from uke in Hatsumi's demos, they would have slapped the **** out of them; not awarded them Dan rank. But then neither would they have provided opportunity or fostered the atmosphere where that could exist.


    maybe it's down to what's said here...

    Bit of a rant. Might not sound like I've changed my tune much, but I do feel sligtly more tolerant and slightly more informed :p


    if anyone can help me not hate on the iwamawashi thing here at about 8mins I'd be very interested to hear what they have to say about it.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh2cpAp5wpU"]Masaaki Hatsumi 1 base ninjutsu - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2016
  12. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i like your post quite. but just wanted to call out this bit...

    according to saulo ribeiro in his jujitsu university book, he sparred with an advanced age helio when saulo was a world champion. saulo wrote that he could not beat helio, that helio survived that encounter. i can't remember the age and exactly how saulo phrased it, but saulo was quite surprised by it. sorry i don't have the book with me at work but i can try to remember later to quote verbatim.

    just wanted to pass on that anecdote.
     
  13. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    there are also videos on youtube of kyuzo mifune training at an advanced age. and the students are not taking it easy on him--neither is he.
     
  14. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I think he screwed up and his ukes went with it
     
  15. gtlaau

    gtlaau Valued Member

    Joe Rogan spoke about Saulo rolling with Helio, it was not a full speed mash fest by Saulo, helio was already in his 80's, it was playful. I believe the set up for it was Helio said to him that Saulo could not beat him.... After rolling Saulo realize that helio couldnt tap him, but that he couldnt beat him either.....
     
  16. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    It was written in the context of building your game on a strong defence

    Personally I found Saulo's conclusion very interesting because one of the mantas of the Buj is "It's not about winning or losing, being strong or weak - just don't get killed"
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
  17. campsinger

    campsinger Valued Member

    An interesting point that many people don't know about, is that Soke doesn't edit his videos. If either he or his uke "screw up" or for some reason things go off script (i.e. uke's balance or the angle of the punch is slightly different), they go off in that direction. Sometimes that leads to something marvelous to watch, and sometimes leaves you wondering, "Huh?" Either way, it is left in the video. The point of that is to understand that things don't always go the way you planned; adjust and keep moving.

    As a side note, Soke picks certain people to be his uke for specific reasons. For example, in reference to the nipple twist, Julio from California is very expressive when receiving pain. Pedro from Spain has some of the most beautiful ukemi I've ever seen, and Soke uses him as uke when he wants to show how you jack somebody in the middle of their ukemi. He also does this quite often to Yabanaka. Yabanaka by the way is also a sponge for pain. He was telling me during one of the US TaiKai that due to jetlag Soke couldn't sleep, so he woke Yabanaka up at 2am and trained in the hotel room until 4am, then went to bed; Yabanaka received a broken tooth that night and couldn't get back to sleep. Yabanaka was also the primary uke the following day.
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    yes, that is an admirable goal i think too. do you think that there's a way for buj people to test that? is that part of the traning? in what way?
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hey, can someone explain a bit what is going on at 1:42+ in the following video? I think the translator is saying, "look at his legs. His body is not off balanced at all, is it?"

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1P5XsNdgAg"]Masaaki Hatsumi Soke and Nagato shihan teach Kihon Happo - YouTube[/ame]

    Is the not unbalanced refer to uke's oi tsuki or what happens after the oi tsuki?

    Apparently everyone at the seminar understands what is going on, so it shouldn't be too hard to answer my question :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2016
  20. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Not sure what came before he said that so not sure why he pointed it out but he is referring to Nagato Shihan(the guy on the right) not being off balance as he demonstrates jumonji on the uke.
     

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