Khrap(khap) for men and Ka for ladiies are both polite words to put on the end of any sentence and to any other person including children(help to teach them good manners and be polite)
But not limited enough to correct someone? I'll say this again, in reference to Muay Thai, Kru means master. The word can also be used to describe teacher, trainer, lecturer or coach (if you look the Thai word Kru up in an English - Thai dictionary, these are the words it presents, along with MASTER), but like you said, it depends on the social backdrop. A teacher is a person who teaches you things. In Thailand, a Kru Muay is a person who dictates the vast majority of your life. Punishing you for bad school results, dictating your diet, hitting you with a stick for not training hard enough, telling you not to screw girls (ironically, no mention is made of screwing other boys, but, because not interacting with girls is based on superstition rather than morality LOL), telling you not to smoke, drink and just dictating the majority of your life in general. If you disobey the Kru, you'll be kicked out of the gym - why should the Kru invest time into a student absolutely free if the student does not follow his advice to succeed? Also, Kru are also always at least 20 years older than their students, given most Thai fighters retire before 30 and don't become Kru until later on and gyms are packed with aspiring children - respect is always afforded to the elders in Thailand. Gvien this social backdrop, I'd use "Master" as the English translation of Kru Muay. That's not to say you should call your trainer back home Master, because it is a different social backdrop. Just call him trainer or instructor, teacher if you want. Whatever. Perhaps just call him by his first name. I was merely pointing out you're posting BS.
Actually, in many of the bigger gyms in thailand that I ahve knowledge of, nobody calls anybody kru or ajarn. SO no BS at - there are no such things as "masters" in thai boxing.
I always call the coaches in Thai camps Kru if they are younger than me,if they are older I call them Ajarn,its just my way of expressing respect. The words Kru and Ajarn are used in the camps of Thailand in my experience.
Well I know that any of the thais I've spoken with all refer to their "teacher". Obviously, in thai they would say Kru or Ajarn, but they don't translate it to "master" and my point was that they don't insist on farang calling them Kru or Ajarn usually. which is where the "theres no such thing as a "master" in thai boxing". I'm not saying there aren't old fighters with incredible amounts of experience and knowledge etc. that would, in other arts, be described as a master. But... in an art without a grading system, there is no concept of "master".
its a cultural thing and they tend not to get offended by a slight of the term or terms in thailand. In some thai camps, they used ajarn alot for the head of the camp and the top trainer. Some used kru. Kru has a deeper meaning and significance to older masters and they like to be called kru over ajarn. Just my own views from being in thailand and actually asking about this a while back. There was a big thread on another forum with all these people arguing that a foreigner shouldnt use the term kru or ajarn, etc. It went on and on....
People younger than you shouldn't be teaching you Muay Thai. Kru Muay is a cultural position of authority - an authority that only comes with age. Besides, there's no sense in your division of young = Kru and old = Ajarn. No sense at all. I take it you were at tourist gyms, but, so it's whatever goes there.
What were the reasons given for not using the terms? What was the alternative language suggested I speak if not Thai?
What gyms? And does "nobody" signify tourists speaking to Thais? I've already explained the meaning of the Thai word Kru. Master is the best translation given the cultural backdrop, the martial factor, and the unquestionable position of leadership and authority that comes with the title of Kru. Unless you can post an alternative translation and reason for it, stop posting "your opinion" because it isn't worth a grain of salt.
You're not taking into account the pretext of the cultural backdrop, and the change of culture they're assuming when they change language and converse with a foreigner. Saying, "Well, when they spoke to my tourist buddy who went over there for a holiday at Xmas when they were at a gogo bar together getting a lap dance from a naked ladyboy" has nothing to do with the actual occurance of regular Muay Thai in Thailand that constitutes the style I'm refering to. For example, if my wife meets a monk on the way to the temple in the morning, she might drop to the knees and dig her face into the ground and offer a small donation to the the monastery. All the while, the monk might glance at me, whilst I'm holding my dog on aleash and hitting him with a stick for taking a **** on my leg again, and he might say "Hello, where you come from?" with a big smile. Just because the monk spoke to me casually, it does not mean this constitutes accepted Thai culture. We have to take into account the pretext of social and cultural backdrop. The views you express are very limited. You should be more humble.
It's not that uncommon to be taught by someone younger than yourself. Especially if you are a westerner training in Thailand. And that doesn't just go for the tourist oriented gyms it happens in lots of camps. Both 13 coins and Jocky certainly weren't considered tourist gyms when I was there and they had coaches younger than myself. In fact back then they were both very much no frills gyms with very limited facilities and almost no english speakers. I train quite often under Teelek Fairtex these days and he's well younger than myself. So while overall for the Thai's there instructor is generally going to be older than them... the same doesn't hold true for westerners and it doesn't automatically somehow connote a person is training at a tourist gym.
If you have not actually trained in those gyms you wouldn't know. Frankly both terms can be heard in gyms in Thailand. But the Thai's are not one to argue semantics most days. You're getting caught up in semantics - and franly unless you have a good working knowledge of Thai and speak it on a daily basis your ability to discern these differences will be somewhat limited by that fact. Even for myself... I can speak Thai on most days... but it won't be at an academic level here in Hong Kong as there are very few Thai's of that class so it will be kept to small talk... as well in place like this with the mix we have it's always going to be a mix of Thai/Isaan/Cantonese/English... further making it a mess. Unless you're going to either be speaking it on a regular basis or sitting down and learning the script... it will be hard to really get a bead on what gets said and what doesn't and how the trends and usage in and among the language work. There are the equivalents of the word master in Thai... however distasteful that word is in English due to its baggage from McDojos and Kung Fu and popular culture. But the word and it's equivalent meaning still exist in Thai and is not uncommon in Thai gyms and camps.
Ratchaninja, I understand your point,If you re-read my post I said Its my way of showing respect,I know Ajarn and Kru are the same thing but I like to make a distinction for myself. also I know younger people shouldnt be teaching me but in Muay Thai terms most Kru Muay have a lot more ring experience than I have so I like to show respect,however I do try to train with people older than myself nowadays(which isnt easy),and its mostly younger people that take me on the pads. As to where Ive trained actually I havent trained in to many large tourist gyms I prefer to search out good teachers or great former boxers,as such I have trained with Hippy Sigmani,Sagat Porntawee,Chai Yai,Lertoranee Phetwiharn and many other good Kru Muay and great Boxers,recently I have just come back from training with Berklerk Pinsinchai. On the general point of respect perhaps you should use a more respectfull tone with myself given that I am older than you and perhaps call me pii?. Chok dee Khap.
Mate, the kind of people I talk to are amongst the best fighters in Britain. Some of them spend half the year living in Thailand just to train, come back to britain to work and save up for 6 months then go back. I hardly think you can class them as "tourists". Honestly, I don't think the arrogance problem is mine mate. You have no idea the kind of people I'm referring to or what circles I move in, or even which "thais" I've been speaking to. Until you do, don't make any assumptions as to where my knowledge has came from. As it is, I know that my knowedge has came from many people with a lifetimes experience of living in thailand and not some douchebag on a forum.
13 coins has had a complete rebuild since then. Place is much more tourist orientated now. It's now TECHNICALLY 3 different gyms but only 1 of them Siangboxing, is ran by Serge Pinto - the father of Antuan Pinto - and they seem to train only foreign fighters.
This is not what I meant. If you believe the interactions of foreigners constitutes what Muay Thai is as a style, then there will be a difference in what we say. I'm a big fan of traditional Muay Thai, rather than Westernized, which is what I think you've been exposed to. There's no way I'm going to wai someone who is younger than me unless they wai me first - thus, by default, this exposes the ridiculousness of a Wai Kru taught to you from some kid. Younger subjects can not properly assume the level of respect and responsibility required to fullfill the role of Kru Muay in Thailand. I've never encountered an exception to this amongst Thai - only does this bend when foreigners are involved, and that's because you're usually being done over for money.
But it makes no sense. Besides, Kru and Ajarn are not the same thing. It's unusual that someone younger than you will be more skilled than you in traditional Muay Thai. But in the case of foreigners, it often is true, as many foreigners start training/fighting at a much later age. So there's no logical reason why you should not allow someone younger than you to teach you if they really do have more experience, but this is going outside of the regular bounds of traditional Muay Thai and Thai culture. What you have to understand is, a person younger than you is not your Kru, he's just some dude helping you out. Under Thai culture, you're not required to wai him until he wais you first - this is important. The only time this is not so is when legal authority is involved, such as military/police ranking and royalty. There are also some reasons in Buddhism, but still, a young monk is not entitled to the same respect as an old monk. If I were you, I'd call the younger trainers by their frist name, and keep the word Kru for the older ones (which are the old guys who should be around, the Kru of the young guys that are training you). If, at any stage, the young guys instruct you to call them Kru, they're being rude and on a powertrip and just doing it because you're a foreigner. I'd leave the gym. But I'd first tell their mother what they said - she'd sort them out.
"Mate" is a word used to assert your authority when you feel threatened. Fail. You still need to address the rationale issue of my arguement - that Master is the most appropriate translation for Kru under the pretexts involved in traditional Muay Thai. So why don't you save up some cash to go to Thailand and see for yourself?
I don't that's a very safe assumption to make. I'm not viewing from only the standpoint of Thai interaction with foreigners. Granted the Thai <---> Farang interaction is going to be a different than the Thai <----> Thai interaction is. But it is what it is and no amount of living there or training there is really ever going to change that much. I'm not sure when your travels in Thailand began but I'd been traveling and training there for quite some time before moving there to live. So again I don't think assumptions are a good thing to go on here. If you're age on your account here at MAP is anything to go by my guess would be that I'd already trained and lived in Thailand for a while before you were old enough to. However I'm not entirely sure what your age actually is. Over I've seen a fair bit of guys who trained in a much more traditional style of Muay Thai. When I refer to Muay Thai I'm most decidedly not referring to K-1 or some other spin off. I worked with both the WMC and the S-1 for several years so I'm well familiar with what goes on in Thai camps that are either Thai only or predominately Thai. We're not talking tourist camps here we're talking the top off the top. Hmm... I'm not all that fussed about my Wai Kru to be honest. I never spent any time focusing on it. I think it's a relatively minor point. Agreed... for a Thai <---> Thai interaction this is correct. For a Thai <----> Farang interaction this isn't the case. Adjustments to cultural mores will undoubtedly be made. That is the nature of dealing with people from other cultures. Again you seem to think you are somehow in some position of superior inside info on Muay Thai, Thailand and training. I'm not sure what you think gives you that inside info. You're certainly not the first farang to travel there, train there or marry a Thai girl from the village. So really... to keep coming off as sounding as if you have some sort of inside line on Thai culture or relations is a bit misguided as there are many that have done exactly what you're doing in Thailand. Having lived and trained in Thailand for several years and worked with fight promoters in Thailand on major fight events there isn't much you're going to drop on me that I haven't already encountered long before you were living in Thailand or married to a Thai girl. Certainly not anything about how the whole dynamic of Thai trying to separate farangs from their coin. So relax a little... :hat:
None of the people I have trained with in the camps have asked me to call them Kru or Ajarn,I wil repeat again its just MY way of showing MY respect to people that are trying to help me learn a skill they posses already,most in fact all have had 200 fights in the ring so are deserving of my respect but dont ask for it and have never been on a power trip. Remember I am not Thai and I am not trying to be,I am just showing my respect,I am aware of a lot of the Thai culture such as not to Wai to children and people younger etc,I have friends who are scool teachers(I have taught in a school in Thailand myself) where the young children call the teachers Kru,if the same teachers were teaching in the Universitys they could be called Ajarn so I am also aware there are differences in the two words, Also Im not quite sure what you mean by Traditional Muay Thai,what is your Muay background? is it in the sport of Muay Thai or the more traditional schools such as Muay Chaiya Boran etc?
