Daughter needs help.

Discussion in 'Injuries and Prevention' started by Combat Sports, Feb 26, 2018.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Thrusters for time, is an injury risk, doing so whilst already glute sore is going to damage you.

    Edit, re fran - Also kipping pullups are terrible for shoulders.
  2. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    Of all the points made in that statement, *this* is the one you focus upon?
  3. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I have a few vague bits of advice, not sure how helpful it is, but here it is.

    I'm hyper-mobile in my elbows & knees. I'm also ridiculously flexible (I'm 275lb and I can put my palms on the floor with my legs straight, for instance.)
    The advice I've been given is to minimize certain types of stretching, but not others. E.g., pec stretch & back stretches I do occasionally, but I don't do many lower body stretches--generally only if something is sore & feels good to be stretched out.

    One other thing to consider: It may be tightness/disfunction in another area of her back that is causing the tailbone pain. Given the x-rays show nothing and body work only provides temporary relief, I'd look into whether there is stress in the upper back/shoulders/neck that may be putting abnormal pressures on the lower spine.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2018
  4. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    That is flexible in my book, not ridiculously so.

    I have a personal rule of thumb that is by no means scientific, but based on decades of teaching.

    In your teens the above should be a given.

    In your twenties it's the same and if it isn't it's time to look at your lifestyle habits (sat at a desk or driving all day for instance).

    In your thirties if you can do it it's good flexibility. if you can't then it should be easily achieved.

    In your forties if you can do it then it shows good habits have been kept up throughout your training.

    In your fifties it's an impressive feat, but by no means unnatural.

    Balance is the key, supple in one area can easily be disrupted by tightness in another.
    Mitch likes this.
  5. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Well, so I'm in my mid-30s, and I sit all day. And I spent most of the past 15 years just sitting with little to no exercise til a few years ago.
    My weight trainer tells me I'm ridiculously flexible for someone with my body type/weight and given that I spend all day sitting at a desk.
    Maybe he is exaggerating a bit? I don't have much else to base it on other than what I've been told by several different people I've trained with.
  6. CMM

    CMM New Member

    OP, did the physicians your daughter saw do both standing and seated lateral xrays of her pelvis/sacrum? Sometimes a coccyx fracture only shows up on a seated film.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  7. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    She didn't report her glutes being sore on that particular day. I always ask her how she feels. I wish she had told me she was having discomfort while sitting but she didn't think anything of it so didn't think to mention it.

    She is doing strict pull ups, we don't do kipping pull ups. And the thrusters were only done with 30lbs. Her push press, strict press and front squat 1RMs are WAY above 30 lbs.

    I will keep what you are saying in mind however.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  8. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    Because that was the only part of his post I didn't understand.
  9. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    That's an interesting question. The X-Rays in general were poorly handled. The ones at the ER were almost useless because they put a guard over her reproductive organs that literally blocked the tailbone out of the picture. They relied on a side picture to diagnose. The sports doctor asked for more X-Rays, and still did not feel satisfied with the pictures so she ordered an MRI. The MRI revealed absolutely nothing wrong with her tailbone.
  10. CMM

    CMM New Member

    I obviously don't know the complete clinical history here, haven't seen the imaging, don't know your daughter, etc., but it sounds like a lateral seated xray was not taken. If any of your daughter's docs want to do more imaging work, you might suggest a seated lateral film in addition to whatever else they want to see, to look for coccygeal displacement that is not obvious on either standing xray or supine MRI.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  11. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I'm sure Simon didn't mean to belittle your achievements at all, and given your background I think that level of flexibility is great! Keep going mate, onwards and upwards!
  12. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    You would hate me as a student. 25 and with my legs straight you're lucky if I can reach halfway down my shins. And yet, can head kick with ease somehow
  13. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Absolutely and sorry if I came across that way.

    My post was more about the term hypermobile and the way many of us can't stretch given our lifestyle.
    Mitch likes this.
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  15. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    Thank you! We have an appointment with yet another sports doctor this Saturday and I will mention this. I didn't really feel right about the X-RAYS the whole time.
  16. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    My point was to try and save your daughter more injury or damage by trying to get you to look at your daughters training schedule, age and developmental stage and seeing whether a lighter load or longer rest period would help, rather than yet more doctors, physio sessions, pushing, prodding and physical work.
    But you decided to get all upset that some people had the audacity to question why a 12 year old kid was doing something that reads like the training regime of a semi-professional fully developed adult.
    Let's face it the level of commitment your daughter is showing to achieve her goals, while admiral, is uncommon. You are switched on enough to know that.
    When I see a 12 year old child doing boxing, wrestling, grappling and cross-fit to the point of injury the most likely driver of that schedule is an adult that didn't achieve what they wanted in life living vicariously through their child and pushing them too far too soon. The information I have to draw that conclusion is being a human and seeing it time and again. It's something repeated all the time.
    As you have pointed out, in this instance, the motivation is coming from your daughter herself and so as a parent it's your job to moderate that drive and, perhaps, make some uncomfortable decisions for your daughter she may not like.
    Like laying off training for a few months. Dropping the cross-fit for a year while she grows into her developing body. Letting puberty settle down before ramping up training to pre-puberty levels. Concentrating on something like the boxing which is probably less stressful on growing joints (in some ways) than the wrestling or cross-fit.
    My gut feeling is that with a pre-history of hyper-mobility your daughter will be prone to joint and connective tissue issues generally. I know I was and my hyper-mobile daughter is.
    In addition her body is currently changing and her hips and pelvis are changing shape. Various hormones are in flux and her ligaments are stretching and her sacro-iliac joint, hips and synthesis pubis are re-configuring themselves into their adult shape and her training schedule is just too much on top of that. She's over-trained at a pivotal time in her life and strained the joints in her pelvis and no amount of physio is going to help with that.
    She needs rest and time to for her body to settle down.
    Sadly that's probably not the answer you or your daughter are looking for.

    As has been mentioned...cross-fit is not "lifting weights". It's cross-fit. It's its own thing and it seems to me form and good technique are sometimes lacking in cross-fit athletes and instruction. Or at the very least it varies massively.
    Let's face it Cross-fit is hard and injurious for fully developed adults let alone a child with hyper-mobility.
    Children can benefit from lifting weights (as you say) but I think they benefit from learning good form over poundage or reps (IIRC cross-fit is all about the reps almost by any means) and slow and consistent progression with someone that understands growing bodies, female fluctuations in performance month by month, etc etc.
    I don't know your cross-fit set up but I'm not sure that's where I'd go for that kind of targeted instruction.

    Now if you find anything objectionable in what I've written there I suggest you go back and read Southpaw's initial post about over-reacting massively to anyone questioning you or your daughters training regime.
    Nachi, Southpaw535, axelb and 2 others like this.
  17. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works

    That's not what you said. What you said was:

    Implying that I force her to participate in sports and that she doesn't actually want to, but that I want her to. Which is despicable. Now if you had said "It might be time to look at her training schedule and see if she is overtraining..." that would of been a constructive and useful piece of advice. Rather then out of the gate basically accusing me of child abuse.

    And MY point, is that no parent who is abusing their child is just going to say "Yeah, she hates every moment of it. I have to force her." Which is why there is no point to asking your question other then to frame an accusation as a question.

    She sat around doing literally nothing physical while we waited for her first appointment with the sports doctor. That took a month. The doctor then advised that the problem was caused in their opinion by weaknesses in key muscle groups in and around the hips, hamstrings, glutes, etc. So she prescribed a vigorous physical therapy regiment in those groups. Three months later she has improved some but I honestly feel it has little to nothing to do with the physical therapy, and they are still reporting that she is weak in those various muscle groups. This is why I started asking around for other opinions because the doctor herself is confused as to why my daughter still feels the injury. And why there is still weakness considering she has responded with strength gains any other time she has focused on a muscle group like that.

    I have posted what she participates in. People are making assumptions about how often or much she trains and then saying I built a "perception" based on their assumptions.

    Her commitment is uncommon in general perhaps in the United States where our kids are growing up to be less physically and mentally resilient every year. And are getting to college incapable of coping with even getting a B in a class. Addicted to video games and electronic devices, entitled, spoiled, etc. Generally when you read or hear about the childhoods of elite athletes, it's not uncommon for them to have commitment even at a young age.

    So in other words, you hold certain prejudices and decided to profile me based on those prejudices without any other information other then that my child participates in a lot of different combat sports.

    So far as "crossfit until injury" she has been training since she was 7 and this is the first significant injury of any kind she has ever had. I am not even totally convinced the crossfit was what did it because as I pointed out she has done these movements with far more weight. And she stated later she was feeling discomfort while sitting before she even began her workout and didn't think to mention it to me.

    I am well versed in the concept of periodization, and that sufficient rest is critical to an athlete's performance. And we have observed that from day one. Which is why she has not had any significant injuries ever until now. The insinuation that I was against that or wouldn't like it is just more profiling/prejudice. The reason she didn't just full rest more then the one month that she sat around doing nothing was because the sports doctor said it would not help.

    We have considered switching to boxing as a primary focus for a while after we are clear about what the nature of this injury is.

    Your points about hypermobile athletes was some of the useful insight you provided.

    Puberty affecting her hips/pelvic region is something a different physical therapist we talked to suggested could be part of the issue.

    Again... you literally have no information about what her training schedule is. This is more prejudice/profiling. As I pointed out earlier, I am well versed in the concept of periodization and that good rest is critical to an athlete's performance.

    I read it. And he was just as full of it in that regard as you are. Making a lot of very negative assumptions based on the prejudice you have against the parents of athletes in general. I don't over-react. You guys literally just jumped to that assumption with no evidence of anything other then that I am a father who has a daughter who is an elite level wrestler who participates in combat sports. You go into every post I make about the subject with confirmation bias just hoping you can "get" another evil parent and put them in their place.

    His replies were full of incorrect assumptions and in some cases negligent mistakes like when he suggested she doesn't need weight training because he claimed that I said she was already bigger then the kids she wrestled against. She's not, and I never said any such thing. Point of fact she typically has to compete against boys who are bigger then her. But the assumption he made fit his narrative in the witch hunt he was engaging in so actually being accurate to the facts of the situation was secondary.

    I had to quote you a lot because I wanted to address the valid points you made but I had to sift through the other nonsense to do so. This is in response to the accusation that I am just not listening. Which was also nonsense.

    So to turn this around on you a bit, rather then going on about how I "got all upset" why not first assume the best of someone rather then the worst and then react all surprised when you get a nasty reaction when you accuse a total stranger of child abuse on the basis of nothing other then that they are a parent who has an athletic kid?
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  18. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Everyone else - Simon you don't train very hard or get enough rest.

    Me - here is my training programme over a seven day period, my rest schedule, my diet, sleep habits and so on.

    Correcting perceived incorrect assumptions is easy.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I've typed a response, then deleted it, then typed another response, then deleted that. Even now I'm not even sure about this reply.

    All the best to you and your daughter Combat sports. I look forward to seeing her in the UFC in the future. Hope her issues clear up.
    axelb and Dead_pool like this.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    double post
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018

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