Takeda Sokaku was a student of Sakakibara Kenichi in Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu. Takeda Sokaku's father, Takeda Sokichi taught him Ono-ha Itto-ryu and Hozoin-ryu sojutsu (Spearmanship, specializing in the jumonji yari.) Sokaku also formally learned Ono-ha Itto-ryu from Shibuya Toma. The Daitokan in Abishiri, where Takeda finally settled still teaches the version of Ono-ha Itto-ryu that was taught by Sokaku and his son, Tokimune. After Tokimune died though, the leadership of Daito-ryu went to Kondo Katsuyuki. Kondo was named Menkyo Kaiden and Somucho (Administrative head) of the ryuha. The headquarters of Daito-ryu are now at the Shinbukan dojo, in Tokyo. BTW, Koyo, your MAP inbox is full.
Is the Jikishinkage ryu an offshoot of the Yagyushinkage ryu. (please excuse my ignorance) Regards koyo Cleared some space on my inbox.Thanks
This question mainly for Kogusoku but anyone please answer. What is known about any Daito Ryu AikiJutsu practicianers that for political reasons were not allowed to go back to Japan (they either fled Japan for fear of death or they left Japan on good terms but were not allowed back in because of isolationist government policies)? If such is known, what became of their learnings, did they end up teaching it in America?
Not to my knowledge, but then again, I'm not a Daito-ryu practicioner. Takeda Sokaku was rather stringent about who became his students. Takeda taught at military & police acadamies all over Japan But it's unlikely, it was Deguchi Onisaburo, his followers and Ueshiba who were under close observation by the Kempeitai (Japanese imperial military version of the Gestapo.) Deguchi was very anti imperial government. If anything it might have been a student from the Kobukan (Old name for the Aikikai Hombu dojo.) but even then it's unlikely.
Koyo, Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu kenjutsu is an offshoot of both Kage-ryu and Shinkage-ryu (Shinkage-ryu is an offshoot of both Kage-ryu and Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu. Another famous offshoot of Shinkage-ryu is Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and is the only extant example of the full syllabus of the ryuha.) Jikishinkage-ryu was founded by Matsumoto Bizen-no-Kami Naokatsu. The 14th shihanke (House headmaster of the ryuha), Sakakibara Kenkichi was the personal bodyguard to the Shogun, just before the Meiji restoration. In addition to this he was Takeda Sokaku's kenjutsu teacher. Takeda Sokaku was an uchi deshi under Sakakibara Kenkichi for a number of years. In addition to this, Takeda Sokaku also learned Ono-ha Itto-ryu kenjutsu and Takada-ha Hozoin-ryu sojutsu from his father, Takeda Sokichi.
No bother indeed? My thanks for the time you take to answer our enquiries. It is ecouraging to get a positive debate going on what could be a sensitive subject without the ussual politics and personalities crap. regards koyo
koyo, you are in extremely good hands with Kogusoku. I'll just chime in one thing and that is the emphasis on kata training in Daito-ryu. Leaving aside discussions about intent and efficacy as well as the linear vs. circular aspects, I would say that Daito-ryu has a lot more emphasis on formal kata. The Sagawa and Roppokai and Kodokai lines might be different, but training in the mainline is very much dominated by formal, two-man kata practice. There are 118 "basic" kata and then Lord-knows-how-many after that. It's been said that there are 2884 kata in Daito-ryu! BTW Steve, I have a question for you, since you mentioned the Takeda version of Ono-ha Itto-ryu. Is it known where Takeda Tokimune got his kenjutsu training from? The usual story I hear is that he learned it from his father, complete with several modifications that Sokaku made based on his own sword fighting experience. However, Stanley Pranin seems to think that Tokimune never learned sword from his father and went to another Ono-ha Itto-ryu teacher after WWII.
Hi Nickh I had alsready reached that conclusionregarding kogusoku. Funny that you should mention kata. At my club the training tends to be a bit "enthusiastic" so I determined to do some kata to bring a bit of sanity to the training.The kata was sword against stick and involved around a half dozen attacks and responces. Sure enough after about ten minutes it was back to (as a kendoka friend described our weapons work) lobsters mating.There is an ongoing debate on the relevance of kata in another forum. Myself I think it is indispensible in proper training bringing into focus the proper use of the body spirit and technique as one decisive unit.I would be most interested in opinions on this. regards koyo
There are some interviews and articles that point the Takeda Tokimune's kenjutsu tuition coming from his father and maybe from outside sources as well, since the Nihon Kendo Kata is mentioned. Takeda Tokimune Profile Takeda Tokimune (1916-2 December 1993). B. Hokkaido. Headmaster of DAITO-RYU AIKI BUDO. Retired police detective. Third son and successor of Sokaku TAKEDA. Underwent extensive martial arts training as a youth under his father. Tokimune established the DAITOKAN dojo in ABASHIRI in 1953. He devised a classification system for Daito-ryu techniques and also incorporated elements of the Onoha Itto-ryu sword school, aiki kenpo, and Nihon kendo kata to create Daito-ryu Aiki Budo. Received Cultural Social Education Award from Abashiri City on 3 November 1987. Due to his ill health in the years prior to his passing, the issue of Tokimune's successor was left unresolved. Many regard MENKYO KAIDEN holder Katsuyuki KONDO, who has assumed the titles of Daito-ryu aikijujutsu Hombu-cho and Somucho, as the continuation of the mainline Daito-ryu school. Other smaller groups follow various other senior students of Tokimune. Interview with Takeda Tokimune Profile of Tokimune Takeda Soke Tokimune Takeda Sensei was born in Shimo Yubetsu Hokkaido in 1916. He received strict instruction in arts such as kenjutsu and Daito-ryu aikijujutsu from his father. After the war, he became a police officer and distinguished himself as a detective. Upon retirement, he became the director of the Yamada Suisan Company. Tokimune Takeda SenseiIn 1954 he established the Daitokan Dojo and dedicated himself to teaching. He retired from business in 1976 and since then has taught Daito-ryu all over Japan. There are now some 60 affiliated dojos and clubs in various parts of the country. * * * Tokimune Takeda: Mr. Ueshiba practiced a great deal. This is well recorded in the "eimeiroku" (student enrollment book) kept by Sokaku Takeda. He studied extensively and was really enthusiastic. He was the favorite student of Sokaku. However, I was the one who was most scolded by Sokaku. Morihei Ueshiba was the second most scolded after me. Since I was his son, I wasn’t so bothered when Sokaku scolded me, but I imagine that Mr. Ueshiba must have been greatly affected since he wasn't a family relation. As Sokaku grew older, he started having hearing difficulty. He started to shout in a loud voice because he couldn't hear well. One of the reasons I accompanied my father was to act as his interpreter. Since he spoke with an Aizu accent, he couldn't make himself understood even by talking in a loud voice. (Laughter) I began to accompany him when I was around 14 or 15 until I became about 20. He spoke so loudly you could hear him even from outside the front door. And then his voice was not normal and just hearing it surprised people. He was very short, though. (Laughter) He was not the sort who would dress casually as we do nowadays. He always wore a "hakama" (pleated skirt) and kept himself neat. Since he was a product of an earlier age, his attitude was very different from ours. Aiki News: When did Ueshiba Sensei meet Sokaku Sensei for the first time? In 1915. I understand they met each other at Hisada Inn in the town of Engaru. I was very small at that time. It seems that Mr. Ueshiba came to Hokkaido to cultivate the land when he was in his twenties. He gathered together the second and third children of families, not the eldest sons, and they settled in Hokkaido. He was still young so I imagine it must have been quite difficult for him. Then he studied Daito-ryu with my father from 1915 through 1919, about 5 years, and when my father began to travel around, he would accompany him. Since Sokaku Takeda traveled about instructing police, judges and that type of person, Mr. Ueshiba probably thought that the art was great and that he wouldn’t have to engage in any farming work if he mastered it. He was very devoted to the art and also quite talkative. When Sokaku was teaching a group of judges and public prosecutors in Hakodate, Mr. Ueshiba happened to be his companion and assisted in their instruction. He was in his thirties then. He taught judges at this young age. It was difficult to rise to that position in those days. One wasn’t employed by the police in those days unless a descendent of a samurai. They stuck to formality. It was a great thing to teach judges at such a young age. You mentioned that Sokaku Sensei was teaching at the Hisada Inn in 1915... Yes. My father stayed at the Hisada Inn and taught. He would teach for periods of ten days at a time, that is, one course lasted for ten days. It was not possible to spread the art because unfortunately, Sokaku only traveled around to teach and didn’t establish any branch dojos. Although it has only been ten years since I began to teach seriously, whenever I go somewhere to teach and everything goes smoothly, I always make it a rule to have the group set up a branch dojo. I tell my students to go out and actively teach after they reach the level of about 2nd dan. At present, we have about 2,280 members in our organization. However, Sokaku Takeda was not that type of person. At that time, only Sokaku Takeda taught. Also, students had to sign their names in the "eimeiroku" each time they participated in a course. Daito-ryu was never allowed to be taught to outsiders. Since these are different times, I have removed the dangerous techniques from the art and am only teaching those that can be practiced by people in general in an easily understood manner. Sokaku Takeda taught for a very long time and instructed about 30,000 students. His main students were police. In a given police department there are a maximum of about 100 personnel. Once a month they have a briefing-type meeting for their work. This brings together many police officers from the smaller substations. It was for such occasions that Sokaku was invited to teach. He directly taught a huge number of people. At one particular such seminar, Sokaku did something very puzzling. He pointed out several individuals among the many policemen and told them to leave. Then he instructed the others. After the course was over, the police chief asked why he had required three or four officers to leave before the practice. Sokaku looked at him silently and then said: "You don’t understand that? One of them is a heavy drinker and has been causing you problems, hasn’t he? How can I teach a person like that? One of the others is a woman chaser, isn’t he? That’s why I didn’t teach him. Then the other one has been disobeying you and you have been having a hard time handling him, haven’t you? I can’t teach people like that!" Sokaku met all of these people for the first time so the police chief was really surprised. Everyone would follow Sokaku because he could do such things. One of the most important things for judges is to be able to judge people and Sokaku was able to do that. It is impossible to imitate him. I began to understand the importance of judging a person’s character when I became a detective. We read people’s characters by their faces. Of course, we verify their acts but an ability to read faces is essential. Although I read books on the subject, it is not an easy one to master. There is no way I can tell a person to leave at the first meeting. Sokaku was a strict person and his manner of teaching the sword was strict. Everyone was powerless against him. So although Sokaku allowed his partner to wear a face guard, he never did so himself. When he was visited by journalists, he never showed techniques for them. He was very strict about the art because it was applied to police tactics. What sort of contact did Ueshiba Sensei have with Sokaku Sensei after their initial meeting at the inn? We can tell by checking the eimeiroku. Sokaku only received those amounts of money recorded in the eimeiroku. I have all of those records. You can tell by looking at it. (Looking at the eimeiroku) Here it says, "Morihei Ueshiba, 10 Yen". He didn’t want people later to claim they had paid him 50 or 100 Yen, so he had them write it in the book. He was not the usual budo man. It is sometimes said that he charged several hundred Yen for one technique, which is equivalent to several hundreds of dollars, but that is not true. He charged 10 Yen per person for the ten-day seminars he offered. His rate for police, however, was 5 Yen since it had to do with their work. People in general were charged 10 Yen. What was the art called at that time? "Aikijujutsu", "Aiki" is also included in Daito-ryu. It after all deals with "go no sen" (self-defense). We don’t have techniques where the criminal grabs our hand and we then throw him. In reality when the police catch a criminal, they have to tie him up with a rope or apply handcuffs. So we never tell our partners to grab our hand or lapel during practice. These are self-defense techniques. For us "go no sen" is simply "Aiki" and "sensen" is "kiai". Without "kiai" you cannot defeat your opponent. (Again looking at the eimeiroku) Mr. Ueshiba practiced quite a lot, didn’t he? This was the first time, here the second, and this the third. Here are the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th times... Here is the 8th seminar where Mr. Ueshiba participated as Sokaku’s assistant. He had 70 days practice as a student altogether. So he really did practice a lot. Here is yet another entry, the 9th time. How's Japan Nick? Hope you're enjoying it.
Some of that piece of history saw the light of day because of Stan Pranin who cannot be thanked enough for his determination that aikido must not lose it's martial aspect or deny the great influence of Daito Ryu in it's development. I met Stan a number of times when he was interpretor for Saito shihan and speaking to him we readily agreed on the incorrect manner in which many were attempting to "market" aikido to make it acceptable to larger numbers of the public.He met and overcame great resistance to his determination to write the true history of aikido and to question the direction some were taking it in. Below is a photo of O Sensei in his Daito ryu days. This is the original photo some have had the Daito Ryu calligraphy removed.It saddens me that some "responsible"teachers are quite prepared to compromise the art for the almighty buck. Modern day teachers have a moral responsibility to promote the art in as undiluted a manner as possible. (this last quote from Saito Morihiro Shihan) regards koyo
A question for you aikidoka... I think that what Kogusoku refers to as ikkajo here is the technique called ippondori in Daito-ryu (the first technique taught). A defense from a straight-on shomenuchi attack. Can anybody confirm that? Thanks.
Hi nj Howard THis is a photograph of Saito Shihan traditional aikido executing Dai Ikkyo Omote waza also called ude osae (forearm pin across the front) I think this is the technique shogusoku is speaking of, regards koyo
My apologies, I always get Ikkajo (a part of the Daito-ryu syllabus) and ippondori confused. Blah! There are five sections in the DRAJJ Hiden Mokuroku that make up the 118 technqiues and Ikkajo is the first set of techniques formally taught. Next, is nikajo, sankajo, etc. (Each section teaches a particular skill and entry technique.) Thanks Howard.
Gendai budo and Koryu budo have a lot of differences deep down. Some of the main differences are mindset. (Bear in mind, that Daito-ryu aikijujutsu is a budo that was formed during the Meiji restoration, so it's a gendai budo, but with very strong koryu influences, especially with mindset.) This particular excerpt is taken from the official Daito-ryu webpage. I have underlined the particular pragraph in the passage. This is the kind of attitude that some koryu bujutsu instructors still have today.
Spot on. If only that was the prevailing attitude today we would be rid of the tourists. As I have posted before. Chiba shihan said I do not teach I make my students learn. That last post kogusoku is a classic. thanks koyo
Ah but under that strict definition, I would be one of the tourists, Koyo. Does that mean that you do not like me coming and training with you? The Bear.
