Daito Ryu

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by MingTheMerciles, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Touch equals unbalance is a fundamental principle of aikido. It speaks of the instant of "musubi" which means contact. It is wrong to attempt to throw someone who has not been unbalaced first.(iE Wrestle or grapple)
    Example a right handed straight punch to the face is often met by a block THEN the elbow is seized and the arm pinned. This is wrong. The strike may be covered by the right hand blade but the elbow is simultaneously STRUCK to a kuzushi (weakpoint of balance) So on the instant of contact (musubi) the attacker is unbalanced. This only lasts for an instant and the technique must carry on from the unbalancing without pause.
    Avoiding an attack and striking is also used to unbalance the attacker on contact.

    The main difference between aikido and daito ryu today is (rant warning) that daito ryu unlike aikido has not fallen victim to the aiki mystics and those who would change the nature of the art to make it more user friendly. :bang: There was little difference in the applicatiion of techniques between the arts when they first came out of Japan some say that the "intention" was the difference. Even this I feel is incorrect since daito ryu practisioners are no less responsible human beings than any other.

    regards koyo
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  2. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Sounds like an e-mail I sent to a mate a couple of days ago.
     
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    If Ming manages to make it to train here in Hong Kong under sensei Creagh - he will find there is a massive emphasis placed on taking your opponents kuzushi point and using it to your advantage. So far every technique I've come across in DRAJJ is based on this principle. That and entry skills... they are two most paramount features of DRAJJ.

    I don't really think anyone is going to get much off a DVD... no matter who puts it out.
    You have to feel it. Yes that's gonna mean that you have to get constantly taken down with the technique to truly understand it... long before you can begin to emulate it. In my experience much of the kazushi in DRAJJ comes down to compression in the lower spine. That kazushi lasts for a split second... no wait... only a fraction of that even.... so while the DVD may be a nice reference... I don't think anyone is going to be able to grasp the true meaning of kazushi from it.
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    As you say slipthejab kuzushi only lasts a split second. As I KNOW having felt it the application of a technique from start to finish lasts a split second.!!!
    best wishes for yourtraining

    regards koyo
     
  5. nj_howard

    nj_howard Valued Member

    Yes, I agree. It is impossible to learn to use aiki in Daito-ryu techniques from a video. The only way to learn to apply the techniques is by doing them on the mat.

    I'll try to clarify what I meant. The dvd I mentioned has a lot of very good, clear technical explanation of the various types of aiki used in the mainline tradition. The dvd conveys the theory and principles underlying the use of aiki in Daito-ryu. As you say, it would be a very good reference for anybody who is getting hands-on training. IMO it would also be a good source for anybody interested in the principles of Daito-ryu. Even persons who don't want to train in Daito-ryu (or can't because there is no school available to them) can gain an understanding of the art's basis from the dvd. The dvd should allow a prospective student to compare Daito-ryu with other arts and make a better-informed decision about where they would like to train.

    Hope this helps...
     
  6. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    The bold part is interesting. What was the difference between DR and the new thing called "aikido" such that OSensei came up with a new name for his martial art?
     
  7. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Perhaps it was a way for Morihei Ueshiba to break ties with his teacher with? It does kinda make a mockery of the whole "linage is so important" argument spouted by those who disapprove of independent teachers though.
     
  8. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Maybe, but look how angry Ueshiba Morihei was when Tomiki Kenji went on to form a Tomiki-ryu aikido which had elements of Kodokan judo, was combative and had tanto & toshu randori.

    A couple of sources quote Ueshiba Morihei roaring at Tomiki about using the name of aikido for his own system (Transliterated since I can't find the exact quote at this time.): "Why not! You've stolen everything else, why not the name?"
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  9. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    People who find themselves with some degree of authority generally don't like to be challenged. But it would be nice to find out the whole truth behind all these things. It'd put a stop to a lot of arguments waged by people who weren't even around at the time.

    At the moment it seems as though the biggest difference were the names. Aikido is a lot simpler. Easy to remember and easy to spell. User friendly :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    O Sensei was heavily influenced by Onisabur o Deguchi and the Omoto kyo sect. Takeda Sokaku and Onisaburo could have been seen as opposites. Takeda being old style samurai. Some say that after the war the military ATTITUDE of the martial arts especialy the corruption of bushido by the military had an effect on Ueshiba who wanted to emphasise that martial arts were not solely for killing but should develop the humanity of the practisioner.
    Personally I think that at such a level (that few attain) the art (whatever art) becomes a personal evolution and it is almost inevitable that such a master shall move into areas that (at the time ) are his and his alone and the original art shall evolve into something different.At times the art was called aiki budo ueshiba budo etc. Again personally I think the name aikido was chosen so as to present the art to the modern world with the emphasis on character building similar to Judo,kendo and karatedo.


    regards koyo

    Edit
    In answer to aikimac what were the differences that caused O Sensei to come up with a new name for the art.
    Really what are the differences between the many schools of swordsmanship
    for example the Yagyu shin kage ryu evolved from the shin kage ryu and many schools evoolved from the Katori shinto ryu.Different they may be but I doubt that there are any fundamental differences. Of course kogusoku can enlighten us in that area.

    O SEnsei Ueshiba aiki budo
     

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  11. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Yes, during the Russo-Japanese war, he apparently did see a few things that made him think twice about being a killer like Takeda. (Bear in mind, there are no recordings that Takeda went to war, he tried to join Saigo Takamori's rebellion against the Meiji government after the haitorei, but only got as far as Kyushu, and didn't make it to Kagoshima. Other than that, there is nothing apart from his famous brawl with the construction workers, in which he apparently killed several with his sword.) It's possible to surmise that that was the main difference between Ueshiba and Takeda: One went to war and saw a lot of his friends die. The other didn't.

    That difference plays a lot on the psychology and mindset of the individual.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  12. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    That I could believe. Nice post. :)
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Koyo said what I wanted to say (the part about what the martial art was called before it was named Aikido)... I'll just go back to lurking :love:
     
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    One of the great tragedies of the Aizu rebellion involved the Byakko Tai a group of young samurai aged between fourteen and fifteen who, on seeing Aizu in flames, climbed to a hilltop and commited mass suicide. It is said that Takeda had been attempting to join this group. As kogusoku has posted he only got as far as kyushu.
    One must wonder about the future of Takeda jujutsu if Takeda Sokaku had been lost.
    Incidently compare the photographs of Takeda (the killer) with Ueshiba (the enlightend post 30) Not much to choose from I would say.


    regards koyo

    Takeda Sokaku
     

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2007
  15. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    I think martial artists are like dog owners. The teachers always end up looking like their students. :p
     
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Should't that be the other way around? If so my students are incredibly lucky. :Angel: If not I am really in the poop!! :eek:

    regards koyo
    By the way the seminar was a great success Polar Bear from MAP was there. He lives up to his name powerfull guy..Next one is on aikido weapons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2007
  17. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    :yeleyes: maybe ... maybe not :yeleyes:

    Glad the seminar went well. I was having a drink with some of my friends I used to train with. They were begging me to go back to the club. Seems like everybody's trying to get me back into training while everything else is trying to keep me away.
     
  18. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It was a great seminar Koyo. Thanks for the invite.
    As powerful as I maybe, I still spent half the day looking up at red hair from the mat. I also have some memory of a close encounter with a wall. :)

    Let me know about the next seminar, I will be there!

    The Bear.
     
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Ming

    As I have posted I see little difference between Daito Ryu and Aikido and choose to train in such a manner. However regarding much of what passes for aikido today a major "difference" is in the approach to nagare (flowing) techniques. While Daito Ryu demands a powerful attack and nothing more,some modern aikido groups demand harmony from the attacker which completely negates any realism in the training.
    AIKI is the ability to MAKE the attacker move where and when to your dictates. This is often misunderstood and what results is little more than a dance.
    I dislike being critical of some aikido but far too often I have had visitors to my dojo and have had to tell them to defend their centreline during techniques because they do not expect to be resisted or struck after the intial movement.
    Bottom line there should be no difference but many aikido practisioners have lost or ignored the martial aspects of the art. My favourite quote.
    DO NOT CHANGE THE ART LET THE ART CHANGE YOU.

    Regards koyo

    I am sure the Bear has much to say on this topic.
     
  20. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Interesting statement, especially the bold part. I appreciate your opinion.
     

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