Daito Ryu

Discussion in 'Aikido' started by MingTheMerciles, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. MingTheMerciles

    MingTheMerciles Valued Member

    Can someone tell me the differences between Aikido and Daito Ryu ?
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Ask many people get many different answers.

    My opinion - in a nutshell...

    DRAJJ is more direct, more angular, less philisophically based, more focused on seriously injuring or killing your opponent. Aikido today tends to attract many that seem better suited for pottery making classes or vegan cooking classes.:D

    General speaking - you won't be covering the efficient beheading of downed and locked out opponent in Aikido. :D DRAJJ - you just may get the chance.

    Far more rigorous in terms of formal dojo ettiquite.
    Much sitting seiza (groan) and and much bowing. Intense and heavy coverage of the proper ways to rise from the mat and how to bow properly. It's so much more involved than most imagine. Raise up the wrong way and you can be cut down before you can draw your own sword.

    Heavy emphasis on the placement of the thumb when sitting in seiza and pretty much all the time. Yes... the thumb. The reasoning being... when swords are present... losing your thumb means you can't hold onto your sword... so it's of paramount importance how you hold your hands.

    Far more focus on keeping the eyes in zanshin. Heavy focus on never taking your eyes off your opponent. None of this friendly compliant technique stuff and then strolling off back to your starting positions with your back to your opponent. Eyes on your opponent until you've gone back to your positions and have bowed. And again a proper bow... with the utmost efficiency in case one needs to draw their sword or whatnot. :D

    More usage of Japanese terms (if that's possible) than Aikido.
    A seemingly larger emphasis on strikes and less quarter given for late/poor entries. If you're entry is off or late with a sensei... you're going to be wearing it in a big way. Overall less circular movement than Aikido.

    There are far, far less DRAJJ dojo's out there than there are Aikido dojos. DRAJJ is rather strictly controlled in terms of who can and can't teach it. There is very little DRAJJ being taught out there. If it is chances are it's come down through the hombu dojo in Japan - if not... chances are it's fraudulent.

    The teaching methodology is also a fair bit different to my eye. A technique is not repeated in the next lesson... they have a whole reasoning behind it.

    I'd imagine that a younger Oeshiba sensei was one hard b4stard.
    I don't think he was the sort of person you'd want to have ****ed off.
    Despite the media image of him being a loving old man with with a wispy beard and a ready smile... make no mistake - the guys he trained DRAJJ under were about as tough and mean as they come. They were a whole different generation of martial artists then... very no nonsense. I don't imagine that Oeshiba sensei was any different when he was young. Not one bit. I think that much of the Aikido that is seen out there today is a fair bit different from the earlier inceptions of Aikido.

    Having trained a bit of Yoshinkan I found that Yoshinkan style Aikido is sort of like the missing link between Aikido and DRAJJ. Some of the things in Yoshinkan in terms of breakfalls I found rather amazing... things I'd never seen in Aikikai style Aikido.
    In Yoshinkan there was also more emphasis on striking. If you missed a bock or a parry then you were gettin a busted lip or sore nose. :D

    Anyhow - yours and others mileage may vary. Comparing the two can be rather subjective. Overall I found the aptmosphere in DRAJJ far more rigorous and military like than I did in Aikido of any kind.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2007
  3. MingTheMerciles

    MingTheMerciles Valued Member

    What about other style of Aikijujutsu ?

    Will Jujitsu mix well with Aikijujutsu ?

    Any thanks for the lecture . Hee hee :)
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    I don't almost anything about others styles of Aikijujutsu.

    I don't know much about JJJ. On the surface though it seems like some of the elements would be repeating themselves if you tried to mix JJJ with DRAJJ.

    Hopefully someone with more background can post.
  5. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Yes but no. Think of a spectrum: JJ on one end, aikido on the other end, and aiki-JJ in the middle. Everyone knows that the founder of aikido first learned JJ and aiki-JJ, and built his new art from those foundations. All 3 share a common core set of techniques and movements. People from all 3 can recognize and name the basic movements of each other. But, all 3 vary in their details of how to perform the particular techniques, and they have their own peculiar characteristic movements. "The devil is in the details" so to speak.

    There is a time when it is good to be exposed to alternative methods of performing the XYZ movement, but there is also a time when you have to settle down with only one style.
  6. nickh

    nickh Valued Member

    There are no others.
    Jujitsu probably wouldn't. But jujutsu might.
  7. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Daito-ryu is the only ryuha to have ever officially used the terms, "aikijujutsu", "aikinojutsu" and "aikijutsu" in it's syllabus.

    You won't find any other koryu jujutsu using that term either, since it's a rather recent phenomena.
  8. acrux

    acrux vi et animo

    In Daito-ryu, is the kenjutsu they study any paticular style?

    Found this on Daito-ryu, someone may be find it of some interest.
    http://www.daito-do.it/sito/images/An essay on Daito.pdf

    You might find this of interest


    down the bottom of the page

    Related Arts
    There are a number of martial arts in addition to aikido which appear or claim to descend from the art of Daito-ryu or the teachings of Takeda Sokaku. Among them is the Korean martial art of hapkido founded by Choi Yong Sul, who made unverified claims to have trained under Takeda Sokaku, Hakko Ryu founded by Okuyama Yoshiharu who trained under Takeda, Nippon Shorinji Kempo founded by Nakano Michiomi (So Doshin) who is known to have trained under Okuyama. Several other modern schools of aikijutsu such as Yamate-Ryu, Takeda-Ryu and Nami-Ryu also claim a connection to Takeda.

    The term aiki-jujutsu (variations aikijujutsu and aikijutsu) in a number of cases have been adopted by newly synthesized martial arts and refer to aikido techniques performed in a harder manner. It also relates to arts that teach jujutsu with an aiki application. See hard and soft (martial arts). Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu is not the sole art that refers to Aikijujutsu (or it's derivatives). Daito Ryu was originally called Daito Ryu Jujutsu, and was later changed to Aikijujutsu by Sokaku Takeda.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2007
  9. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    Read what Kogusoku posted again.
  10. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter


    Like I said, recent. Like Meiji Jidai recent. You won't find koryu schools using such terms.

    Any other school using the term aikijujutsu nowadays is just hopping on the bandwagon made famous by Daito-ryu really. I have seen videotapes of Yamate-ryu, it's just a really pale imitation of Daito-ryu, done stiffly without the aiki. It's a budo founded by Frederik Lovret. Do a search on e-budo's threads or on another Japanese budo dedicated forum.

    BTW, Hakko-ryu (Or Hakko Denshin-ryu) don't refer to themselves as aikijujutsu - Only jujutsu. The founder, Okuyama studied Daito-ryu and adapted the teachings to his medical theories, since he was involved in the healing arts.

    BTW, Wikipedia is an OK source sometimes, but not 100% reliable. Visit official sites, rather than compiled information which might be just tantamount to a bunch of hearsay.
  11. nickh

    nickh Valued Member

    These frauds who think that they can teach aikijujutsu by simply taking aikido and making it "harder" or by adding strikes are deluding themselves and their students.

    Trying to make aikijujutsu in that way is about as stupid as adding water to raisins and telling yourself that you now have grapes.
  12. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I have trained in traditional aikido for more than forty years and would agree and add that there are strikes in aikido so they cannot be added. I also take exception to those frauds that took aikido and made it "softer".

    regards koyo
  13. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Well, the only thing that makes Daito-ryu rather effective as with a lot of koryu jujutsu systems is the rather sophisticated knowledge and application of body mechanics. Notice in Daito-ryu, that they never really allow uke to get a full grab employed on them - They are working the instant bodily contact is initiated.

    This doesn't however work when a grab is fully applied with intention and good, strong grip strength. It's all a matter of timing. That's why atemi can be employed - It's mainly a contingency for when you don't have time or presence of mind to apply the principles effectively.

    According to a Japanese friend I have in Tokyo who is a Daito-ryu practicioner, the difference in terms in Daito-ryu (jujutsu, aikijujutsu and aiki no jutsu) is the application of principles. ( Edit: Of course, this came after peacetime so certain people had a lot of playtime in the dojo. :) Other koryu jujutsu just stick to atemi get the job done, nothing fancy. Applications of timings can change, but the format generally remains the same.)
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2007
  14. PlasmaShock

    PlasmaShock Valued Member

    i dont even know what the two are
  15. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    What, aikido and aikijujutsu?
  16. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    They're martial arts of course :p
  17. nj_howard

    nj_howard Valued Member


    Your signature says that you're in Singapore and Hong Kong... here's some info taken from the website (www.daito-ryu.org) of the "mainline" Daito-ryu organization in Tokyo, directed by Kondo Katsuyuki. You might want to check out this school in Hong Kong.

    Since this school is listed on Kondo's website, you can be sure that it is authorized by Kondo's oragnization, and is therefore teaching legitimate Daito-ryu.

    Good luck...

    The Hong Kong Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Association

    Branch head: Dermot Creagh

    Email: hk_daito_ryu_aikijujutsu@yahoo.com.hk

    Training schedule and location

    Mondays: 19:00-21:00, The Yuen Wo Road Sports Centre in Shatin.

    Wednesdays: 19:00-21:00, The North Kwai Chung Tang Shiu Kin Sports Centre.
  18. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Sensei Creagh has a good reputation and is very proficient in DRAJJ.
  19. nj_howard

    nj_howard Valued Member

    There was disagreement among several direct students of Takeda Tokimune about who should become the next headmaster of his organization when Tokimune passed away. When the torch was passed to Kondo, a few of the other direct students were quite unhappy.

    If you check out the Aikido Journal and e-budo forums, you'll find lengthy discussions about the succession controversy. You'll see the view that you cited represented, as well as opposing views. Several of the posters have done extensive research into the subject.
  20. nj_howard

    nj_howard Valued Member

    Ming, if you're willing to part with about $USD50.00, you can't go wrong by buying yourself the first dvd of the Ikkajo set of techniques by Kondo. The dvd is published by Aikido Journal, and you can get it from their website.

    The dvd has lengthy explanations of the mainline tradition's interpretation of aiki. The explanations are in clear language and IMO go a long way to demystify the whole concept of aiki in aikijujutsu.

    Perhaps this will help... Kondo uses the phrase "touch equals unbalance" in explaining what distinguishes jujutsu techniques from aikijujutsu techniques. In other words, when you're doing aikijujutsu, you are taking your enemy's balance (somehow) at the very moment of contact.

    Just one other thought for now... don't dismiss basic Jujutsu techniques just because they might not use aiki. Most of them are still very effective.

    Anyway, good luck, and if you seek out the dojo in HK, let us know how it goes.

Share This Page