Cross Training

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by cheesypeas, Nov 7, 2007.

  1. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    At the end of the day striking someone is an integral part of self defense and is integral part of "Tai Chi Chuan" hence the name.
    The use of Fa Jing which is the engine Tai Chi striking is almost lost, without it the strikes become useless, hence a lot of schools no longer teach to strike.

    It's never the point of the Art if the Teacher can't do it, which is why so many teachers who only teach the form say Tai Chi was invented for enlightenment.
    As far as drills go have a look at
    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=explosivefist&search=Search
    hope that helps.
     
  2. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Some of that looks pretty good, thanks for sharing. I will have to look into it more.

    My Tai Chi training it must be said has so far been at 2 extremes. I'm either training forms or i'm training for Sanda.
     
  3. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    Couldn't agree more. :)
     
  4. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    I think your getting the impression that I am saying that a taiji person can beat a boxer person regardless, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that if you want to use the weapons/skills you develop in taiji, you have to be in the right place at the right time. Its like, you would not take a long spear to a close quarter fight, nor a short blade for horseback joust.

    You don't see boxers using the strategy I mention because they are boxers not taiji players, as such, they train differently for different skills and their strategy is also different. There is no better strategy, its what you can and cant do, not style vs style or strategy vs strategy. Its simple really, you have to know what weapons you have and how/where/when to apply them, even the best weapon is useless if its not used in the appropriate environment.

    He's entitled to his POV, as is everybody. But since you brought it up, please explain what he means by his two ranges and how they apply to fighting and taiji.

    If there is an opening for a strike and you feel it, then strike, if its a throw, then throw. I don't think its relevant what one thinks taiji is, striking, throwing, etc.

    Does not really mean anything to me. My taiji is mine, as his is his.
     
  5. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    I appologise if I sound arrogant in my opinions. I am only into my second year of training TJQ and as such my view of the art is rather shallow. I only imply otherwise in arguments because it usually gets better points out of people and I want to expand my knowledge. Any way I will try to answer your questions.


    I can see your point.


    The way I was trying to referance the quote was to your point about getting in close on a boxer. But I don't want to try and speak on behalf of my instructor, you would have to ask him, I was giving my interpretation of it.



    This i would disagree with. I am an beliver in 'train how you fight and fight how you train.'

    Can't argue with that I suppose. But it does open up the whole "who has the 'real' TJQ"
     
  6. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    No need for any apologies man, we're just sharing ideas. I too am just a beginner and can only speak from my minuscule experience.

    Another thing I forgot to mention. If we take something like pushands and the skills it develops, in order for it to be of some use against say a boxer, you have to get in to a position/range where you can use it, a boxer being a boxer would probably not find it comfortable if you exerting control over him through constant contact and would try to get back into his preferred position/range. But the two positions/ranges are different, so its either yours or his. As such you have to be able to cross from his range to yours, otherwise you just end up boxing, and seeing as thats the boxers skill, the taiji player would be in a disadvantageous position. If that makes sense.

    Fair enough, maybe you could ask him for an explanation and see what he says, as I don't know your instructor. I'm always open to new ideas, hopefully we can both learn something interesting.

    I see what you mean, but I don't see why that should only refer to striking or throwing, and why not both striking and throwing. For one it would make training more varied and interesting, but I guess its really up to your instructor.

    Yeah, the "real" taiji is an illusive creature. But to be honest with you, I don't care too much for it, I use what I like and what works for me, if I see something elsewhere which I find useful than that too will go into my taiji.
     
  7. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member

    Cool. I'm just trying to be careful with how I put my self accross on the internet these days, it's easy to become a '-hole' on internet forums.



    absoloutely. But then that is why I would suggest crosstraining Boxing or Thai Boxing, so that a TJQ practitioner can feel comfortable in that range, at least long enough to get the fight where he wants it.



    Sure, I will ask him to elaborate.



    If I have understood this right, I think I have answered this question earlier in this post. I think we are kind of arguing the same points but from differant angles.



    Yeh TJQ is definately a progressive art. We wouldn't have differant styles of Tai Chi if it wasn't.
     
  8. inthespirit

    inthespirit ignant

    Yeah, I think I do that too often these days, but it is kinda true. :)

    I see what you mean. Like I mentioned earlier, I had a very brief experience with muay thai and found it somewhat counterintuitive to taiji, but then again putting yourself out of your comfort zone is always good, though I don't think I would adopt many of their techniques. Personally, I would just go for some sparring, as opposed to cross training. Maybe someone with more experience in this can share their opinion.

    I think this might be the case, and yeah I think you did answer it earlier.

    True. If we all just did the same stuff, there would be no evolution and we'd have nothing to talk about on these boring Thursday afternoons enslaved behind our computers. :)
     
  9. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    Nice to see that whoflungdat, but you need to be hitting and that was CarysB what I see you don't have in your physical move is that independent arm move.

    It helps to instantly explode thru the object. The thing I have always hated about taijiquan is that they make like you should not make contact and that video shows that. Hit because you need to know what is like when caught of guard. I use to bounce and did use Taiji and Wing Chun/Hsingyi as how to control someone.

    Make contact even with the face without gear. It has always been how I have trained. Those are good basic drill based ideas of Taijiquan.
     
  10. cheesypeas

    cheesypeas Moved on


    Da iawn. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2007
  11. Silly

    Silly Valued Member

    Interesting discussion, and some of it must depend upon the style you're doing. In Chen style, striking is quite prominent.

    In the 18-move form I'm learning, we have numerous strikes (Hidden Hand Punch, Left Heel Kick, Fair Lady Weaves the Shuttle, Head on Blow which are (or contain) explicit strikes; so that's 4 of 18 moves). Then there are implied kicks in several moves as you step out, and lots of implied hand strikes.

    I seem to remember that one of the senior Chens counted the strikes and throws in the Old Frame First Form, and there are a lot (several dozen) of throws, but even more strikes!
     
  12. unfetteredmind

    unfetteredmind Valued Member

    I don't think this is the case. The main hole I see in Taiji is what to do if a grappler gets hold of you and you are starting to go down. How to control the takedown so you optimise your position and what to do once on the ground. I find it pretty complete for all other aspects of fighting.
     
  13. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member


    Thats EXACTLY where TJQ should help you! As for ground fighting thats obviously not present. In my experience TJQ doesn't have a comprehensive stand up fighting system. The strikes it has are similar to those you would find in JJJ (such as setting up a throw/sweep/push with a groin kick or an eye jab) This is why i would reccomend cross training in both a kickboxing style and a ground fighting style (if your goal is to be a well rounded fighter)
     
  14. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    And at the other extreme, your Sapphic love fest, happy clappy twaddle is not TCC.

    I know that people want to believe that you can 'learn' TCC just by being friendly to old people, but the sad truth is that at some point you need to get thrown around and indeed to throw other people around, Ideally you should not be required to want to be thrown. In fact, you should be required to not want to be thrown.

    But anyway, I’m sure that your way is much nicer and more inclusive of older people and small girls, which is important.


    I don’t need to know what 'other stuff' you have done. I just need to know that it's filling in the gaping hole in common experience that should be covered by any normal TCC class on a weekly basis. Hence I get to make a judgment call on the value of your (so called) TCC.
     
  15. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    sorry Mate I'm not sure what you mean.
     
  16. nready

    nready Verifying DMI pool....

    It is alright but you need to be hitting each other, at no point are you making contact drills should involve a alive experience. So you learn how it will be in the confrontation.

    When I did Chen we did drill that looked similar to what you showed they never had in my view enough contact.

    The first statement is not important to you.
     
  17. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    sorry I have agree with unfettered on this one the most dangerous opponent to a good Tai chi practitioner is a good grappler.
    The answer is don't let him get hold of you or your fighting on his terms.
    I think you are going against what you said earlier, by defining ranges ie kick boxing and ground fighting. If he's in range hit him.
    Thats why if your training your Tai Chi correctly you don't need another Martial Art.
     
  18. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    Hi, yes now I understand, yes we do do quite a lot of contact work, take a look at the Small San Sou drill. Unfortunately if Nasser The guy in the Video's, did make contact, you wouldn't be doing anything in the near future. We do train with body amour and bogo masks to get the hitting a body feel & the body shock training. My arms are so bruised from last night its hard to type, but thats part of the fun.
     
  19. Cuchulain4

    Cuchulain4 Valued Member


    But to use anything from TuiShou you have to be touching i.e grappling. Tai Chi works on the basis of feeling your opponents momentum and energy. I would say just continually striking is not using Tai Chi and certainly doesn't make a well rounded system. A good TJQ practitioner should be a good grappler (wrestler or whatever you want to call it)

    By only 2 ranges I mean standing up, obviously the ground is a differant game all together. And to be honest perhaps I am going against it. I need to ask my instructo to elaborate on what he meant.


    p.s when i say grappling/grappler i mean when 2 guys are in contact, clinching at eachother. I don't mean ground grappling.
     
  20. whoflungdat

    whoflungdat Valued Member

    Feeling someones energy and momentum is open to interpretation such as
    When your opponent moves forward you move forward & Your opponent decides how he will be attacked. We do locks and holds and stuff, but we always assume that the aggressor knows what hes doing, so a lock or hold will only be used after the attacker has been struck or subdued in some way.
     

Share This Page