Could FMA have some Spanish influence?

I'd take espada y daga as a pretty clear influence of the Spanish fencing methods. Not just the term itself. We all know that applying a foreign term to an indigenous art doesn't imply relationship. The British calling gung fu "Chinese boxing" doesn't suddenly mean that there's an ancestry from Western boxing to gung fu.

But the idea of fighting with one longer weapon and one shorter one isn't a common idea in Asian methodologies. At least I can't think of too many examples. There's ni ten ichi of course. But the way espada y daga generally works is very different from the way someone would fight with a katana and wakazashi.

 

Wasn't some of the founding members of the original doce pares, members of a "fencing club" during the spanish occupation? Therefore, a combination, adaptation, modification, whatever you want to call it, the filipino fighting system, as it is now, is a blend of everything that they went thru. Filipinos are excelent in adapting/adopting things and are very ingenious, so if they found something in the spanish techniques that worked, they could very well have blended it in. Just my 2 cents.

 

It was certainly called a fencing club. At least, that's what GM Cacoy told me. But I don't know how much Western fencing, as we'd recognize it, went on there. It's like the term "eskrima." From the Spanish "esgrima." Which is the term they use for fencing. It suggests a Spanish influence. Though not necessarily a fencing influence.

That said, I do believe that there is a clear fencing influence.

 

Philippines = one big melting pot in South East Asia. Like Pat and Ap Oweyn mentioned of course they were influenced by the Spanish but what they did with them are in the end Filipino! Heck they were influenced by the Indonesian Arts just as those were influenced by India, Thailand, etc. on down the line. When people interact obviously there is some give and take in their culture. That is natural! Certainly when you look specifically at some FMA systems you see some serious connection. However, this takes nothing away from the FMA's as in the end they are Filipino!!!

 

Let's get visual (visual, i wanna get visual...)

Here's some Spanish school two weapons work (La Verdadera Destreza0

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ4Kr4aMHPg]Spanish school sword and dagger La Verdadera Destreza[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMV2Rr_YAKI]Spanish school sword and dagger La Verdadera Destreza[/ame]


Here's GM Momoy's work on Espada y daga

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmJNNgtc-0Q]The beautiful Espada y daga[/ame]

Thoughts?

 

Also for your reference.

MAP FMA Archive: How Much influence did the Spanish have on FMA?

 

How about knifework?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tKh1dYKi50]promo Sevillan Knife[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfNhgnmJBjA]PTK laro[/ame]

 

Not taking anything from FMA, or from being a Filipino, because we do adapt/adopt/modify a lot of things to make it our own. But historically, GM Cacoy was right in the "fencing clubs" because my grandfather belonged in one. And then, in World War II, my grandfather claimed. they were learning boxing (not western fencing). And, it may be the other way around, since when Spain brought their ships west (California), they brought a lot of Filipinos with them, who did some of the fighting for them. They probably picked up techniques during the long days at sea. Lastly, some of the techniques I know, have a little bit more Japanese and Indonesian blend, than Spanish. So it's ALL FILIPINO.:hat:

 

Correction, i do have one very distinct technique that I have seen in both spanish and japanese sword technique.

 

Which one?

 

Oh, I don't dispute for a moment that it's Filipino in the final analysis. Let's be clear. I don't think it takes anything away from FMA to acknowledge its influences. On the contrary. One of the most distinctive things about FMA, in my view, is its pragmatism. Don't get hung up on whether it's indigenous or no. If it's something that can help address your concerns, use it, modify it, incorporate it, etc. I think that mindset is probably more FMA than any particular technique is.

Hell, look at the GMs you can think of. How many of them, as individuals, have NO other influences save for Filipino ones? GM Cacoy, alone, drew from aikido, judo, jiujutsu, boxing, and karate, in addition to FMA.

Your dad was in one of the fencing clubs? That's pretty fantastic.

 

Since you're really good at finding video clips, there was a clip, probably 30 some years ago, shot in the old California (Spanish version, and not Zorro), about 2 Spanish guys having a duel, using a sabre on their right hand, and a musket pistol on the left. Since the gun had only 1 shot, it was reserved to give your opponent a quick death, after you get stabbed or hacked to pieces. But the way they moved, using the pistol for defensive purposes, and hacking on each other and not fencing was very interesting. Maybe, they learned it from us? Because I have never seen anything like it, from a Spanish/French or any European style of swordplay - other than pirate movies. There was some decorum or formality with the duel, that it was more gentlemanly, and yet, aimed to kill. It's a very old clip, so i hope you can find it. Thanks.

 

Your dad was in one of the fencing clubs? That's pretty fantastic. [/QUOTE]

Grandfather: Sgt. Teotimo Saavedra, nephew of Lorenzo Saavedra, sole survivor of the Saavedra's in world war II. Born in Cebu, moved to Libak, Cotabato, then, to Zamboanga City. Died in 1989.

 

Sorry. I'm not in the FMA circle so I've only showed it my kids and my brother-in-law. Maybe, someday.

 

It's in Japanese swordsmanship?

Do you know which ryu-ha?

 

I don't know which one but it's a single very effective strike (can have variable speed, depending on your opponents reaction). I learned it when I was a kid, seen it in a japanese clip about 2 years ago, and while, looking through some old European movies, saw it being used in a duel. I practice several japanese arts, so if I can find the wordings on it, I will print it.

 

Ah right! GM Cacoy talked a lot about the Saavedra family when we spoke. Very cool.

 

Yeah, i'm a direct descendant but, sad to say, not an FMA practitioner. I know techniques from my grandfather, but for liability reasons, decided not to teach them, other than to my kids. What's bad is that I practice and teach japanese and korean arts which my grandmother hated, why I had to learn techniques of her enemies.

 

Well, as an Englishman who elected to train and teach FMA rather than Renaissance swordsmanship (for instance), I'm not here to judge.

 

I can understand in a small way. My dad was in WW2 in the Pacific, so I guess I was learning techniques of his enemies when I learned the small bit of Karate I have been exposed to. I remember in high school I had a shirt with a rising sun flag on it, and looking back - if I was my dad I would have probably been offended by it - but I don't think he actually was. I don't remember that he had anything really against Japan when I was a kid, but a lot of people from his generation did.