Could FMA have some Spanish influence?

i don't think it's impossible that both avenues of preserving the training and keeping it hidden from the spanish were employed. you cannot say for certain that methods were never hidden in the moro moro.



tim

 

here we go again!

pat! pat!

popcorn! beer! get your popcorn and beer here!

also will be taking bets on this one.

btw, limbas, who you calling an 'indio'?

 

If the performer of the moro-moro was a swordsman, then there was no reason to hide his sword methods 'coz he was performing for his masters (the spaniards). In the same vein, no swordsman who was against the spaniards will ever perform a moro-moro.

 

The people who danced before the senores. That's how the spaniards saw the natives... "just like the indians". "Indio" means indian.

 

it's a racist term.

 

Terms used by the spaniards:
indios - natives conquered
insurectos - natives who refused to be conquered
filipinos - spaniards who were born in the P.I.

 

all i have to say to both of those comments is 'why?' you speak in absolutes and give no reasoning. please explain what you're meaning.



tim

 

This a touchy topic to most FMAers so I'd rather not dwell on it. I merely suggesting ideas other than the more popular ones. Its up to those interested if they wanna pursue their study from the hints given.

 

and being pilipino, don't you think that it would be offensive? the spaniards used it in terms of the natives being stupid and/ or lazy. hence the stories of juan tamad. if it were a term ok to use, don't you think it would still be around today?

 

It was meant to be offensive.The indians should be offended being compared to a group of people who with great ardor served and danced before the mocking smiles and laughters of their conquerors.
I am a Filipino but I have a feeling that my ancestors were called insurectos/filibusteros and not indios.
There are still indios today... dancing and performing for their new conquerors... though they might be donning a new title... masters.

 

i dunno about you guys, but i don't see anything spanish here:

WEDO
WEDO's 91 year old GM
Arnis Defense Silat
Rapido Realismo
LSAI's Bigay Tama Drill

the terms may be in spanish coz maybe perhaps the ancients didn't give a name to certain moves, drills and even the style itself or perhaps because they were forcibly renamed into spanish terms, but the art itself is still filipino.

 

I would have to say that there is definately a connection there. There may be little or no "proof" other than similarities in footwork, weapons and techniques...but you can not rule another country for that long of a period and not influence the fighting styles/systems of that country. The Filipinos are famous for adopting and adapting, they are able to take anything and everything they see and train and strip away the non essentials and make it their own.

 

The reason they are in Spanish is because the Spanish once conquered the Philippinnes, it was part of the Spanish empire, there are also a lot of Spanish fencing techniques within many of the Phillipino styles, the second language of the Phillipenes is Spanish, and the islands are even named After King Phillip of Spain the one who got his beard singed when he tried to invade Britain with the Spanish armada.

 

"the second language of the Phillipenes is Spanish"

1.Tagalog 2. English - then you have regional dialects e.g Cebu - Cebuano

 

It was my understanding (and I could be wrong, as I sometimes am. I like paprika with my plate of crow please ) that FMA's derive from constant tribal warfare amongst each other, obviously evolving practical sword/knife play over the ages.. and from what I was told, when the Spanish invaded, the natives didn't stop fighting each other, just gained a new enemy and new fighting techniques to integrate into their native styles. Thats just how I learned it. Either way you prefer to believe the back history of FMA's, it just goes to show you how adaptable and effective they are to stand the test of time and still be some of the most formidable TMA's in modern times.

 

Yes the Spanish influenced the way the Pinoy arts developed, they seen some effective fighting skills, they figured them out, adapted them and then made them very much Filipino. Much the same way as any nation would when fighting another.

An individual technique or format of fighting (e.g. Espada 'Y' Daga) for instance may well have started out as Spanish, but once it was adopted, adapted and used to great success it them became Filipino.

Best regards

Pat

 

The Spanish language is every where in the Philipino language. Tagalog is the national language that was implemented years ago as a way of communicating with everyone. You have to remember each village/tribe has there own language. There had to be a way of speaking a language in order to communicate with all and that is why tagalog is the national language. English is spoken over there only because of the presence of the U.S. Armed Forces. Some of the numbers still have spanish names...you will still hear people say uno-dos trace...as well as isa, dalawa etc. Mano y mano is spanish as well as abiniko. SO there is alot of spanish still used in the language.

 

i believe it's too easy when someone give statements like what's on inosanto's book (it was hidden in the dance, blah blah blah), or what is passed down as gospel in the united states as proof of FMA's history. one must realize that the philippines has always been a bladed culture for centuries, much like any other countries in that part of the world. IMO, there are some spanish influence on what we NOW know as FMA, that's why i subscribe to this theory:

http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html

as far as do we, as filipinos, has a certain style of fighting before the spaniards came over, i believe we do. let's look at our moro brothers down south. to wield a barung or a kris is unlike any style we see on most of the northern islands. i believe, for a bladed culture, it would take more than the constant one-two-one-two strikes to defeat any invaders. this, to me, is a very complicated topic to come up with just one answer. one must know the history of the country and her people, the culture, and its nuances to even understand an inkling of what is the truth.

i wanna see is how FMA was before 1521...

dunno 'bout that, but we do have a saber like sword at the turn of the century (check out the one just below the dagger), so i reckon there's a set of skills on how to use one of these babies?

 

To be able to beat certain skills and or techniques (Spanish sword play for instance) you will first have to have a good idea on how to fight witht he sword, then it would be reasonable to assume that you as the defender would study there way of play, adapt your own skills to defeat it.


So did the Spanish influence the FMA, absolutely by the mear fact that they fought each other, are the techniques used in the FMA Spanish, no. Even is some techniques started out that way they would have been given a distictive Pinoy flavour and interpretation and for that the techniques and skills used will still be Filipino.

Did the Spanish influence British Sword play, absolutely as above their skills would have to be adjusted and adapted to counter the Spanish way of playing, and visa versa.

So in effect we could say that the Spanish martial arts has been influenced by the Filipino martial arts.

Each person in battle will influence the other side, it is natural, your skills learn to adapt and adjust to the event as it changes around you. That is war and how wars are fought.

Know thy enemy as they say.

Best regards

Pat

 

OMG! A necro-thread!

Back from the archives of 2006!

I wanted to revisit this in hopes of learning how spanish saber and the mystical circle did have a direct influence on arnis and eskrima.

Given: 350 years of colonization.
Given: FMA is meant to adopt and adapt.
Given: We would have studied it enough because we would one day have to fight it.

I was hoping that we could do more historical work on this because FMA would have and should have integrated it into it's repertoire given it's very nature if adopting and adapting to what it faces on the field.

Weigh in.