Hi Steve, about time the voice of reason intervened. As usual, I agree with 95 % of what you say. Of course grades should and are awarded for services rendered to the association one belongs to or Karate in general, Ticky Donavan, is a good example. A man who proved it on the mats, poduced a conveyor belt line of champions and resided as manager over the British Karate Team and gave the UK it's glory years in World Karate. I agree, many senior karateka should not be expected to compete with the young bucks, but here we might differ slightly. I would not expect most 60 or 70 year old Karateka's to train with the energy or commitment of a thirty year old, but up until then, why not ? With knowledge of modern sports sciences and diet, failing injury, why shouldn't people still train hard into their early and late fifties ? The senior KUGB guys do and there's a squat, thickset, little Okinawan who must be near his seventies and he's still training. In china and Japan, there ARE still Seniors of quite an advanced age who are not only still training, they can STILL do the ' business ', although I have to add that they are not embroiled in the UK drink / yob / here today gone tomorrow / fast food results culture, ( Although I suspect, one day it might go that way............. ). It's a subject for another day, but like you, whilst still training vigorously in an ' external ' system, I'm planning ahead by also training in an internal system because as times passes, the emphasis will one day pass from the external to the internal to suit my / our physiology. Now, back to to thread........ These UK Tenth Dans either self promoted or accepted these grades whilst in their Forties' so at that age, THEY SHOULD STILL be able to do the ' business !' But I'm betting if challenged, they wouldn't or couldn't. A serious student should have all the information on the label and shouldn't have to train for 18 months before they realize they are learning McKarate, ( But we both know THAT will never happen ! ). We both know one shouldn't judge ability by grade, but alas, many impressionable youngsters do, ( Check out a GKR class ). Part of the trouble is we percieve things through the eyes of ' old timers' whilst the youngsters know no better.Yes, I know things have and are changing but I still believe that it is incumbent on ' The diehards ' to try and maintain ' some ' standards and help ensure youngsters coming into the arts whether from a leisure or serious training point of view are given as much help and advice as possible and are steered away from the cowboys and Judans. Jaae
You know, the weird thing is, Fosters seems to be what the world thinks all Australians drink, and we baptise our children in it, and add it to our water. The reality is, not only don't I know anyone who drinks it, I don't even know of anywhere that sells it. Anyway, there's one thing I've been thinking about while reading this thread. Anyone who actually knows about this please feel free to correct me, I promise it's not the first time I've been wrong. Now, as I understand it, the first person to introduce grades into their system was Professor Kano, when he founded Judo. As Karate is from Okinawa, it would be safe to assume that the people whom we now consider to be the founders of karate as we know it today, Funakoshi, Mabuni, Miyagi etc., were not graded by their teachers. So were these early masters graded, and if so, by whom?
Most of this information can be found in Mark Bishops book Okinawan Karate. But Funakoshi learnt under Matsumura and Ankou Itosu to name but a couple but cannot find where he got his grades from at present
That's exactly what I'm trying to get at. I'm not condoning people declaring themselves Judan/Soke/Shihan/Grand Poobah, far from it, but how do we know the founders didn't do it themselves. (Albeit legitimately.)
Hi 'Cannibal Bob' and All, What's LEGITIMATE???? I can call myself 10th dan of inky dink ryu and it's 100% LEGIT I can call myself a 10th dan SHOTOKAN and that's NOT legit. but... Suppose I started a style called Shoto-Kaan and registered the name as a trademark and called myself a 200th dan... know what, that would (probably) be LEGIT... And... None of it matters - 99.99999% of all the people who study martial arts are doing it for fun - so what's the beef... If people want to do GKR or Shotokan or Humpty-Dumpty Ryu - as long as they are enjoying it and not being physically or psychologically damaged by the training then it's OK. Now I agree that there are some places where people get damaged either through poor physical training practices or by having instructors who are damaging the students in other ways - and those are BAD and should be challenged. But otherwise it's just all a bit of fun... EVEN if you are learning your martial art for civilian self defence - guess what - one art is pretty much as good (or as bad) as another - and I have studied many arts superficially and several arts in enough depth to be able to feel that is a valid judgement... Why do I believe that? Because even a little training in a poor martial art will probably give the average 'Joe' an edge against the average street thug - why because the physical training will make 'Joe' walk slightly taller and slightly better balanced and the average street thug (without even knowing about it at a conscious level) will simply leave 'Joe' alone and pick on someone else... Comments awaited All the best. Robert.
Whilst I agree with some of what Rob says I also disagree with a fair bit. "Why do I believe that? Because even a little training in a poor martial art will probably give the average 'Joe' an edge against the average street thug - why because the physical training will make 'Joe' walk slightly taller and slightly better balanced and the average street thug (without even knowing about it at a conscious level) will simply leave 'Joe' alone and pick on someone else..." I certainly do not agree with this bit many a good martial artist has come unstuck against some one who has had a few street fights. Some one with a little training in a poor martial art will get his Ass kicked all over the place!! I can say that from seeing such things on more than a few local streets when kicking out time on a saturday night happens!!!
What I mean by legit is that the people in question have put in the hard work, trained for a long time, and understand their art, and, upon forming their style, have been honest about their lineage and such, not just payed their way to Nidan and started their own Authentic Traditional Combat Japanese Secret Ninjajitsu. True, for alot of people it probably doesn't matter. But not everybody trains just for fun. I myself am a bit of a lineage whore, hence my question earlier about Higaonna Sensei. I'll let you in on a secret; people are lazy. Most people, including myself, will know what they want to do, but they just sit around, saying they want to do it, and never actually try it. In a world of automatic doors, drive through fast food, and entertainment beamed straight into your home, nobody wants to go out and look for what they want. As such, they sit around saying "I wish I was a karate black belt", not knowing the hard work you need to put into it or that being a black belt doesn't automatically make you a good fighter. Then the door bell rings; "GKR - a black belt delivered straight to your door" says the friendly sales person. So Mr/Ms Average goes along, thinks how easy it is, trains for a year or so, gets wasted on the street, decides karate sucks, and never does any MA again. The same can be said for the parent whose child wants to do karate, the child ends up in a McDojo, and the rest of the story goes as scripted. It happened to me. I hated karate for a long time as a result, and it wasn't until I happened to meet a Go-Ju karateka years later that my negative opinion finally changed. Have you been to a GKR class? Anyway, sorry for the long post, just my 2 cents.
Ok, question, are people actually stating that Graystone runs a McDojo? Because if you are you need to provide actual evidence of this. Evidence does not include saying that you cant find the Japanese teacher who taught him 25 years ago, because I bet most of us here have teachers that you would struggle to find evidence for on the net. I have seen no evidence of him using GKR style marketing practices, which means his style has prospered through merit and as for his grade, who cares? If his karate is good and he is a good teacher he can call himself "Grand Master of the Third Order of Osaka the Great and Wonderful Graystone Hanshi - 11th Dan" because in Shindo Ryu the amps go up to 11. From what I have read he has done a lot of good for karate in this country.
Hi MAP'pers, This one is turning into a can of worms. Bob, ( firstly, I hold nothing against you for being Australian - wink ), with reference to your question / statement about the origin of the belt ranking system and what went before, this is pretty well documented and is accessible on the net, but for accuracy, refer to works by Cook and Bishop. Briefly, ( and this is a brief overview and not a definitive statement !? ), prior to Kano establishing his belt ranking system, most Chinese and Okinanwan systems used the ' hierarchal or family ' sytem of designating rank and students were either ' younger or older '' brothers '' ', depending on the time spent training. The head of a school usually had the documentation or scrolls containing the most advanced secret techniques handed to him on the passing of the previous master. Even today, in the orient, this practice still continues, although it is rare. Around the 1930's and later in the 60's, the Japanese Government tried to rationalize and bring some standardization into the Japanese arts, Karate in particular, by implementing a code of practice of sorts overseen by the recognized Headmasters of the various styles of the day. These ' Headmasters ' were recognized through out Japan as ' the source ' and most had impeccable lineages after training for many years under previous masters. ( If my research over many years is to be believed ). There a number of people in the UK who have started their own style and in many cases it / they have been accepted, because generally, they have spent many years studying under an aknowledged teacher and have usually reached advanced rank in their core art, i.e, Sensei Meiji Suzuki and his system of Mugendo. They have then gone on to study several other arts, in great depth, with outstanding teachers and at some point in their martial arts journey have decided to amalgamate much of the technique, their experiences and philosophy into one art form. Master Hironori Otsuka and Sigung Bruce Lee are other examples that spring to mind. The late great Gary Spiers taught a combination of Yamaguchi Goju Kai and pure street fighting, all gleaned from his personal experience, which was vast. The man lived in Tokyo, ( Much of the time living and sleeping on the floor of Yamaguchi's Napori Dojo - arguably the hardest and toughest karate dojo in Japan at that time - training everyday, several times a week, doing the business AND having it done to him ). None of these of people set themselves up as Grandmasters. Holy asks the question are people labelling Hanchi's system as McDojo ? Well, lets see, forty odd year old Tenth Dan..................do the maths ! what inescapable conclusion can you not avoid coming to. His Karate might be brilliant..... In fact he held a World Masters seminar in Stratford upon Avon quite close to me, recently, and I thought about attending.......... for about ten seconds, before deciding to get my **** down the gym and lift some heavy weights. Perversely, I would probably respect him and any other UK Judan more if he / they did promote himself / themselves to 11 th dan, as a Hardcore Traditional Karateka I could distance myself more cleanly from these Hanchi's as I could put the argument forward that in Genuine Traditional karate there are no 11 th dans and the argument / dis - agreemets would be invalid. list the instances of good, Hanchi has done for British and world Karate.... I've forgotten. As I've mentioned before, if these Judans didn't seek to legitimize their ryuha and portray them as Japanese / oriental style Karate styles or systems I doubt we would be having this discussion. I have read many, many articles, particularly on Hanshi and 99 % of the time they are written by his own students and are completely subjective. My view is, IF he tells his new students that he doesn't teach an authentic Japanese derived Karate system, that he awarded himself Tenth Dan, and that there was a good chance the KUGB Third Dan instructor teaching across the road was probably technically better than himself, then that would go some way to restoring the balance. To be honest, I can't see much of a difference between GKR and Shindo anyway. Kancho Sullivan ( sic ), ( at least he did train in Japan ), trained up to Nidan in Shotokan and Goju before having a moment of clarity and developing GKR, whereby his own association duly awarded him Seventh Dan. The only real and fundamental difference I can see is that GKR have a more aggressive marketing stratedgy than Shindo, or perhaps Holy can point to others ? Just a point, ' Shindo Ryu ' roughly translates as ' The Way of the Truth ' school. Jaae
When you come to my dojo there are no dan grade certificates (or 'stickyfoots' as the kids call them) on the wall and if anyone wants to know how good we are, they simply have to watch or train. I award grades (including dan grades) without any ceremony in class to show that the only importance I attach to them is that they determine which class the student attends and which group they join when training - 'testing' is done constantly in class. I constantly reiterate that it's the person, not the belt, club, school, style or martial art. At courses I insist no gi's or belts so that everyone is the same and the atmosphere informal. For my school, this works best. FYI my association (Shi Kon) has the following Dan grade rules for it's 15k members and can be found at http://www.shikon.com/Guide to Dan Grade Assessment.asp: Guide to Dan Grade Assessment It is important for standards to be consistent right across the board so that anyone grading in the Shi Kon system knows where they stand and so do facility providers, employers, government officers and NVQ Accredited Centres. 1st Dan standard would entail a sound knowledge of the grading syllabus to that level, able to perform it consistently with sufficient power, concentration, fluidity and awareness to produce the effect that the technique dictates. 1st Dan requires the applicant to be able to instruct the techniques to others in the standard manner and be able to teach students to 6th Kyu standard consistently. 1st Dan applicants should carry the recommendation from their Coach and have a proven history of good behaviour, good manners, good etiquette and have given support to their Club and Association environment. At 1st Dan it is expected that the successful candidate will commence portfolio building for NVQ Coach Level 2. 2nd Dan standard would entail a sound knowledge of the grading syllabus to that level and would have gained maturity and depth in their power, concentration, fluidity and awareness that only consistent practice and sufficient instruction can give. 2nd Dan requires the applicant to be able to teach students to 3rd Kyu standard consistently and their manner should now be a cross between “Instructor” and “Teacher”. A 2nd Dan should be taking responsibility for Club discipline and helping the students to develop the good manners, behaviour and etiquette necessary to develop themselves and be working in an advisory capacity under the guidance of a senior Coach. It is necessary to have a proven track record of having undertaken Association or Club responsibility and been able to see tasks through to completion. 2nd Dan candidates should have developed their NVQ level 2 portfolio to near completion. 3rd Dan standard would entail a sound knowledge of the grading syllabus to that level with added maturity and depth in their power, concentration, fluidity and awareness. 3rd Dan means senior instructor and “Teacher”, this means being able to interpret technique and the underlying concepts into their own words and still be correct. A 3rd Dan should be able to teach successfully and consistently to 1st Dan standard. A 3rd Dan should have the “insight” and “wisdom” necessary to be able to work with and help special needs students without monitoring from above and the patience and compassion to complement the strength and determination required achieving the seniority and warranting the respect. A 3rd Dan candidate should have a proven track record of having taken both Club and Association responsibility and having seen tasks through to completion. A 3rd Dan Candidate should also have their NVQ Level 3 portfolio near completion. 4th Dan grading can be honorary and/or a physical grading may be necessary. 4th Dan candidates should have a proven track record of working at senior level with a group of clubs or at Association Level. They should have “specialised” in some way and produced work and results that merit the grading award. If the Grading Committee have no personal knowledge of the applicant it would be expected that a report be produced containing evidence of the above and a physical grading be taken to prove technical competence. 5th Dan grading would be the same as 4th Dan but work and “specialisation” should now be at an Association and National level, with proof of the candidates' instruction being able to produce students to 3rd Dan level. Grading would comprise of reports, evidence, and recommendation from senior Association officers and may require a physical grading to prove technical competence. 6th Dan and above are honorary grades giving distinction for work done at a National and International level and can only be awarded by recommendation from the Technical Committee. It is generally accepted that from 3rd Dan and above, you can grade your own students to 2 grades below your own grade, after which their further gradings will be overseen by a member of the Shi Kon Martial Arts Technical Committee. 3rd Dan upwards is by recommendation in writing to the Shi Kon Technical Committee who may require a physical grading if they are not aware of your technical standard. In exceptional circumstances 1st and 2nd Dan instructors are able to grade under licence from the Shi Kon Technical Committee to 6th Kyu and 3rd Kyu respectively, but it is strongly recommended that only a Chief Instructor of 3rd Dan and above conduct gradings. Minimum time periods between Dan Grades are as follows: 1st - 2nd Dan 2 years 2nd - 3rd Dan 3 years 3rd - 4th Dan 4 years 4th - 5th Dan 5 years 5th - 6th Dan 6 years 6th - 7th Dan 7 years 7th - 8th Dan 8 years 8th - 9th Dan 9 years 9th - 10th Dan 10 years It must be stressed that these are the absolute minimum time periods between grades and any request for upgrading should be supported with evidence as to why seniority is warranted. The minimum age for awarding adult 1st Dan is 16 years and 2nd Dan 18 years.
Hi Steve, Your mission statement is exemplary, although I didn't expect anything less. I'm aware that your association was one of the first to align itself to NVQ's and national coaching qualifications. Anything that gets people back into education or the learning process is, in my book, a good thing. Your grading cycle seems to mirror most of the recognized ' blue chip ' Karate organisations and is comparable to a ' Japanese ' model. I've noticed if a child of say, ten years old started training in your system, and he was a talented student, who trained at least three times a week, and never failed a grading, who met and surpassed all the criteria laid down in the mission statement that he'd still need to be in his sixties before becoming eligible for a Tenth Dan rank ! I believe our UK Judans must have been in rompers when they began their training, since both became Tenth Dans in their early to mid forties............... It would be interesting to see details of their grading system ? Can anyone oblige ? Jaae
I have to say I am quite taken back by a tot of the response on here... with the exception of Jaae. Robert: I am not surprised that you don't see a problem with it. As you clearly only teach MA as a bit of recreational fun for the kids... If thats what you do, fine, but I do not believe that is how the shindo ryu organisation bills itself. Personally I do not believe that is MA, but that is a different subject. Steve: I know you say that you would never have been duped by a such characters, and so have no sympathy for those that are.... and that martial arts knowledge is irrelevant in spotting the sham... but i disagree. Firstly I do not think with all your MA experience you can really say what someone with none, would or would not be duped by - it is hard to imagine the perception someone with no MA experience would have in viewing someone like Graystone, who has clearly spent years building up smokescreens and myths to surround his organisation, to the extent that he regularly writes for the magazines. And clearly many people are duped, shindo, gkr etc etc... are you saying that the are all idiots that should have known better... i doubt it. Personally I think Jaae hit the nail on the head a while back: People like graystone premoting themselves to 10th dan from what is probably a 2nd dan level of ability is taking away from all those people who have had to grind and work for there grades. It devalues what others have worked so hard to get, and destroys that perception of the arts that they train in.
Hello 'Haduken' and All, Actually that's exactly what I DON'T do - I only teach adults and although I sometimes make exceptions, I generally require a prospective student to be a black belt in a martial art (or equivalent if not 'Japanese' arts) before they come and train with me. Of course that may be the problem - as I train with people who DO know what they want from martial arts training - so I don't have to worry about explaining it in the same way as you do if you are running a kiddie karate class (and there is nothing wrong with kiddie karate - it's just different...). All the best. Robert.
well i have been to a seminar with you and i am not a black belt or equivalent - nor were many on the day - and what i saw, and your posts on here, suggest that you view the martial arts as a bit of recreational fun - why else would you post words to those effect?
Hi 'Haduken' and All, Right ho, I must have been mistaken, thought I knew why I did martial arts but obviously didn't. Of course it could also be that sometimes - often? - the written word - well MY written word - doesn't explain things in as much depth or with as much clarity as might be wished for. Out of curiosity which seminar - If you went to the Goju one I did (2005???) You would have seen me asking people to behave in a variety of strange ways - like 'Daleks' and 'Cybermen' (Oh actually did that at a seminar in 2006 as well) - but if you can't have fun whilst learning important principles about balance and motion then you are not only missing out on the fun but you are also reducing the effectiveness of your learning - we (human beings) learn better when enjoying ourselves. That's why in a lot of 'oh sooooo serious' martial arts schools nobody ever seems to get it!!! Also when doing a seminar you have to teach at a level that the majority will 'grok' which means that sometimes you teach what you had planned and other times you change completely. I was asked to teach at a large grading and thought it was 18+ when I got there it was 8+ BIG difference - so we did lots of 'karate games' - good fun and teaching basic skills - everyone loved it (especially the bit where the kids had a chance to 'beat up' all the adults and instructors... Still each to their own and by definition there WILL be some people who learn best in a serious and highly rigid environment... So.... Have fun, train hard, keep well. Robert.
Hi MAPper's Daleks and Cybermen ? yes, I heard about that school ! Their motor skills were naff, but they were blood hard ' bast@rds ' ! OzzyBob, the Fosters a bit orft' pass the Castlemain XXXX digger !? There is room for everyone, ( Well at least until the Rumanians and Bulgarians come flooding in, next year....... we already have our quota of bloody Aussies' - Wink ! ). In a previous interchange with Steve Rowe, he put it across nicely by suggesting martial arts / Karate was rather like a swimming pool. some would dip their toes and never get in, others would paddle and play, some would be recreational swimmers whilst the odd few would become athletes - I rather liked that analogy. My retort was something along the lines of, yes, great, BUT.....the swimming pool would need to be overseen by lifeguards who were both qualified and experienced, and new beginners would need to be taught by qualified and experienced swimming instructors. As a parent of a child being taught, you would expect the highest standards. Everything would or should be wholly traceable and transparent, and with most of ' our ' UK Judans.................... well, it isn't. There are large gaps in their history and lineages in regard to their grade. I'm aware other systems may have shorter grading cycles, but I do not know of one Tenth Dan or Degree Modern Karate, Free Style, All style, No style european Karate practioner in the UK, maybe someone can enlighten me ? and even if there were, it's relationship with ' Japanese Style Karate ' , for want of a better phrase is occidental. There are words and phrases in Chinese and Japanese martial arts used to describe subtle components, mechanics, dynamics, nuances and fundamentals in relation to their relative arts that can never truly be accurately translated into English, but a good Asian Sensei or european instructor who has spent enough time with their Chinese / Okinanwan / Japanese sensei can help you ' feel ' and understand these subtle characteristics. Like Steve Rowe, I have sought out and trained in class format and in private lessons over many, many years with bone fide, top class Sensei and Sifu. The common denominator was that THEY still trained or referred to their teachers and none set themselves up as a Soke, Kancho or Hanshi. It's my personal view, please feel free to disagree, but I feel they are small men standing on the shoulders of giants, who take the view that if they keep their nerve and constantly drip, drip, drip feed us, then ALL will gradually accept them. Yes times move on, but whether it's something like, say, literature or the arts, we always look back and refer to the ' classics ' and the brilliant men who produced them, no matter how good the modern work may be. I always remember, when training with my Japanese Sensei in the late 70's, early 80's walking into class one day and Sensei walked in with a red and white belt. As a youngster, I didn't know my **** from my elbow, but from deep within, I felt innately that it didn't look right and Sensei always looked better with a blackbelt around his waist. Yes, I know, he could have had a rainbow coloured belt on, it wouldn't have mattered one iota in respect of the quality of his art................... but still. I have been training with my Sensei for the best part of 28 years. He is a senior grade and has serious skills to match his grade. He is more of a father figure and friend as much as my teacher BUT he still gives me a beatdown occasionally. However, if he turned up wearing a red belt or anounced he was now a Tenth Dan I'd split my sides................... and so would he !!! I have seen and trained with many of the best........................ I'm sorry, but ' our ' Judans are not even on the radar, not yesteryear, not yesterday, not tomorrow or even in twenty years time. I don't like the term master or the connotations it can imply. I have met and trained with teachers who were Master - teachers, much in the same way a senior craftsman in times gone by would be known as a Master Craftsman. What made them Master - teachers was not just their excellence in Karate / Jujutsu / etc but their integrity, their humilty, their empathy, their honesty and their graciousness. I feel the moment these judans accepted / aquired these grades, they lost a little of all the above qualities. Just my humble opinion. Jaae
Hi, Blood Hard = bloody hard.............and occidental should read incidental !!! I apologise, it's laate, I'm bloody knackered, Good Night................. oh, and I still blame Funakoshi for the rise of the McDojo Jaae
Dude the Daleks are wimps, they were all wiped out by Rose Tyler. Get them to act like the TARDIS. It's almost indestructible, and if they lose the fight, they can go back in time and try again. But I do agree with what you're saying. Apart from helping the students learn, having a fun and enjoyable class also serves to encourage a student to keep coming back stay with the art. That's an excellent point. The best teacher in my opinion are the ones who are aware that they're not masters, and that they always have more to learn. When I did Go-Ju Ryu years ago my Sensei was easily one of the best Karateka/fighters I have ever known. He had been doing various martial arts for over 20 years, in particular Go-Ju, plus also worked as a bouncer for many years. Despite this, he was always training and refining his technique, always trying to learn more things, and always in awe of his superiors, telling us stories of witnessing the things they did. I think the best martial artists are the ones who know where they stand in their art, can recognise greatness, are always willing to learn more, and don't have illusions of grandeur and mastery. On an unrelated note, I tried out an IOGKF class last night, and I was very happy with the class, and amazed by how much I remembered from those days training with the Sensei I mentioned earlier.
