I wrote a post in the Karate Forums which inspired me to ask this question. How does everyone feel about "playing around the rules" in competition fighting- Any Style. Many fighters do this and I'll give some examples: In TKD- Pulling the person in the clinch that is the side away from the referee to make room for another attack, when throwing double kicks making the first one to the thigh rather than the chest guard to soften the opponent. With the increase of body punches being thrown in the clinch a LOT of international fighters (including people I have versed) will pretend they got hit in the jaw or the neck when they are hit with a body shot, even if it's clear, to try and milk the penalty. In sport Karate- I know in some light contact comps, people take the glove off to give them more distance for the back-fist, hitting with glove not fist. If they "snap" it hard enough it looks like a normal back-fist, Throwing a harder than allowed strike to the opponent to try and put them off their game even if it causes a penalty. In MMA- Using the cage to gain an advantage when in the clinch or on the ground. In Boxing- Throwing the hook all the way around so even if it misses the elbow may still strike the opponent Gi Based grappling comp- Having a loose gi so when the opponent grabs it instead of having the opponent they pull loose the whole gi and loose balance. I know a lot of people (especially those who dont compete for one reason or another) think that any step away from the rules is completely unethical and very poor sportsmanship. There is also the flip side, of those gyms/clubs that ALL practise dirty fighting and you know the instructor is teaching the students to "cheat". These instructors, students and often supporters and parents have the do anything to win attitude. Personally, I have experienced the whole spectrum of fighters in the different rulesets I've fought under. Now days I only compete in WTF TKD and there are 'good' and 'bad' fighters at every level. At lower level comps, the fighters often do the worst they can but it's fairly obvious- I've seen people punched in the face and K.O.'d (which is against the rules) kicked in the leg and groin and everything in between. Sometimes people get away with it because the referee's are inexperienced. At higher level comps people are more subtle, faking injuries to get time out when tired- especially important if a person is injured and fatigued from 4-5 fights throughout the day. Trying to milk penalties. Referees are better at this level, but often not infallible. I watched a player beat a Korean National Team member at the French Open by 1 point, which he received by pretending a punch that hit the shoulder hit his face. The coach and the doctor all played along as well. However, while unethical, this got him into the gold medal match at a major international tournament, with world ranking points up for grabs results are very important. I try to play within the rules but it is frustrating when it seems everyone is not. With this in mind, I'm sometimes prone to the occasional little misdemeanor like falling after kicking to avoid the counter, pushing in the clinch, etc, etc, etc. While technically against the rules, every referee has a different degree of tolerance to it, and if you know you can get away with the action without being penalized it can be the difference between loosing and winning. What's the general MAPer's view on this? And please share any experiences you have when you have fought or even been the "dirty player" and how it went for you...
- Use your forearm to strike the back of your opponent's head before you get him into a head lock and take him down. - When you stance behind your opponent, use your forearm to upward strike at your opponent's groin (or squeeze his nuts) before picking him off the ground. - When your opponent bends his legs, twist your leg around his knee joint to bend his knee side way. - When your opponent grabs your shirt, wrap your arm over and over his wrist area until he can't pull his hand back. - When you take your opponent down, pretend that you lose balance and smash your sharp elbow right on top of his heart area. - ...
I adapted my style because of the rules in place. So for "light"-contact kickboxing I left my rear foot far back when stepping in as it nicely allows for a roundhouse. Messes up punch power, hip rotation and stance stability. So I fought "worse" in order to optimise my performance within the ruleset. But now I can't get out of the habit, which is REALLY annoying.
Funny you find that. When I went from light contact to full contact rulesets I took a long time to adjusting to really hitting people hard instead of just tapping them
The trouble is you have two very different things happening here. Some are against the rules, while some use the rules to their advantage while staying within them. Take MMA. Common rules state that if one hand is on the ground it counts as a grounded opponent and thus you can do nasty stuff like knee them in the head. So now you have a bunch of fighters who will stand up with straight legs and lean over and touch their fingertips to the ground to prevent being knee'd. Stuff like this is perfectly within the rules and shows a good understanding of them to use them well. While it can be annoying for some people, I don't see anything much wrong with it. If people think it's wrong, then change the rules. Things that are against the rules and they try sneaky ways to hide that they are breaking the rules are bad. It does take a good referee to notice this sort of stuff though and unfortunately refs can always be better.
Most people don't realize this. You can go into a TKD Olympic match and have little to no kicking skills...if you rush in and manage to clinch the guy without actually holding him and punch the hell out of his body, you can score points and slow him down remarkably. Just keep it on the lower side of the hogu so they can't claim an illegal punch to the head.
Mixed feelings, I don't mind a little creativity, but I object to outright gamesmanship, I think the dividing line for me is 'not taking the ****'. Which is singularly unhelpful, I know.
Osu, There is little of all that in full contact --- it seems like more contact keeps you honest Osu!
If you can't or don't want to play by the rules, then stay out of the competition. Just do jiyu-kumite with like-minded people. I have a hard time with people that get the complete red-vision in competition. By this I mean, people that get tunnel-vision focussed on winning, not hearing judges, forgetting about rules etc. Has anyone else met these types of competitiors?
LOL - quite right. This is really something you learn very early... if you foul your opponent, he'll come back harder, with more intent. I learned to focus on precision to avoid inadvertently hitting my opponents in the head with a sparring partner that never complained, he simply hit me back! Osu!
LOL - quite right. This is really something you learn very early... if you foul your opponent, he'll come back harder, with more intent. I learned to focus on precision to avoid inadvertently hitting my opponents in the head with a sparring partner that never complained, he simply hit me back! Osu!
I haven't competed, so I cannot discuss this from your point of view. Still I find it 'unethical' to try 'milk' anything you can off a match. It's the reason I don't watch soccer anymore. It's all 'strategy' and faking, with few people who are actually playing to win and putting everything in that match.
I think it would be naive to enter a competition and not expect your opponent to bend the rules. How much will depend on the individual's ethics. Is it a good thing for competition? Probably not. It just means that you need to bend the rules as well or be that much better to win. I hav a friend who's way of dealing with this is excessive force, even if he gets disqualified.
Depends what the competition is for. Is it purely competition for competition's sake? If so, sure. Game it all you want so long as it's within the current ruleset. That's the game, and will continue to be until the rules are changed. If it's to decide the better fighter, test the participants' ability in the style or in fighting in general or to anchor the theoretical class study to an actual applicable ability, then the first thing to look at is what rules are there and why. The rules which function toward that end should be observed. Generally the fewer the rules, the more realistic the competition becomes, so a reduction in rules tends to come with a reduction in cheating or gamesmanship opportunities. As you add more rules you get more loopholes and arbitrarily effective techniques. The backfist is a perfect example. It's a great placeholder for the jab for some applications but it regularly is the decisive blow with which competitions are won. If you compete purely for competition's sake, that's cool, but it isn't fighting and doesn't produce fighters. That's okay, the problem happens when it isn't advertised as such. Unless it's expressly independent of actual combat training it's way too easy for people to tell themselves that they can fight after backslapping their way through a queue of strip-mall krotty warriors.
I tend to give it as good as I get. We all know what the dirty tactics are, generally keep it clean, which most of my matches have been. A lot of it is also down to referees perception and opinion on certain moves, is it worth the restart? Warnings for accumulation etc. And like any technique, you have got to learn them to expect them and counter.
Sounds like you've been following the Italian team a bit too much. Does anyone here remember the 2006 Germany vs Italy match in the World Cup?
